Andrey Vlasov & the RLA

Foreign volunteers, collaboration and Axis Allies 1939-1945.

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Edelweiss.
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Andrey Vlasov & the RLA

Post by Edelweiss. »

I know rather little about this character, and even less about his reputation amongst Russians today. Is the RLA viewed in Russia with the same attitude as Stauffenberg & Co. in Germany? This site does, in my opinion, make a very valid point in the article on the anti-Soviet movement in World War II Russia:
If, in the eyes of many people, Germans who fought against Hitler were not traitors, why should the Russians who fought against the Soviet system be traitors?
The article also goes on to state that:
The tragedy of the Vlasov Movement was that it was fighting one totalitarian system at the side of another, that it was fighting for the liberation of its own nation at the side of another nation which wanted to enslave it. Its liberal programs were a kind of paradox. The same held true for the national anti-Soviet movements of the non-Russian peoples have not met with understanding in the West. In those days, all Soviet citizens who took up arms against the USSR were in the eyes of the West traitors to their country who did not deserve leniency. This was of course, a much too simple way of looking at the whole question.

From the moral point of view, the Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Cossacks, the Georgians, Armenians, and Turkomans, and the members of all the other non-Russian nations were not traitors. No matter under which government they were born and in which part of the world, they all fought against a government which was not their government and against a country which was not their country, but which had enslaved them. By contrast, the Russians of General Vlasov fought only against their government but not against their own nation; what is more, they fought for the liberation of their nation from the system which enslaved it. One could say of them that they were traitors to their government but not traitors to their nation, and in Soviet Russia the government and the nation are not the same, as in the West.

There never was in Russia a government of the people, the affairs of the state are not controlled by the people, and the state (and government) does not exist for the people but the other way around. General Vlasov and the thousands of his soldiers and millions of his supporters were good Russians and not Hitler's hirelings which, unfortunately, they appeared to be and which Hitler wanted them to be. Already in the autumn of 1942, the German Foreign Office stated in a memorandum that General Vlasov "is not....a mere seeker after political glory and accordingly will never become a purchasable hireling and will never be willing to lead hirelings."

General Vlasov did not become the leader of the mutiny against the Soviet system because of personal grievances; far from it, to the very end of his service in the Red Army he was making an excellent career. Treason does not come easy even to people of a low moral level. At the side of General Vlasov almost a million Soviet citizens were fighting shoulder to shoulder with the invader, and millions of others were showing sympathy for the invader: there must have been very important reasons for this phenomenon.

In my opinion there is one reason which explains everything: the general hatred of the Soviet system, a hatred greater than inborn patriotism and loyalty to one's own government. Those who have not seen the limitless degradation of man in what was the Soviet hell cannot understand that a moment may come when a man out of sheer desperation will take up arms against the hateful system even at the side of an enemy. The responsibility for his mutiny falls on the system and not him. Here the notions of loyalty and treason lose their meaning.
Essentially, I wish to know what the general consensus is amongst Russians in this post-communist era, with chance for a more objective stance to be taken on such an issue.

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Post by Edelweiss. »

My personal view is one of sympathy for the anti-Soviet movement, myself being a fervent anti-communist. The same goes for all the national minorities who took up arms to free their nations from the grip of Bolshevism. Thje article I posted did open eyes to a movement that the West appears to know so little about. Of course, in Soviet circles this would be regarded as treason, but from my anti-communist point of view - I see this in a very different light. Not afraid to state my beliefs at all.

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Post by Vladimir »

Vlasov's reputation is very negative in modern Russia.

The word "vlasovets" (soldier of RLA) is the synonym of traitor.
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Post by J.P. Slovjanski »

I would say Vlassov's reputation is quickly rising as quickly as the true nature of the Communist barbarians is being revealed today. The ethnic background of Communisms leadership and intelligentsia also makes Vlassov look more heroic. It was his era in which the tricolor flew one last time over Russia.
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Post by PAWEL_202 »

J.P.
Not only do you have a wonderfull way with words
you are 100% right

Tell me what is your opinion about the 29th ss
=Treu-Tapher-Gehorsam=
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Post by J.P. Slovjanski »

Well I can tell you this: Besides Bronislav Kaminski, there were not nearly as many Poles as you would like. But that will not likely stop you from claiming it as a Polish SS unit the next time we meet.
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29ss FACTS OVERLOOKED

Post by PAWEL_202 »

Hey I never said the 29SS was a Polish Div.But YOU
have made the clame in the past that there were no Poles
in the 29SS knowing full well there was
No not the thousand or so that were in the 14SS but
surely you admit what in the final days as the 29SS
moved through an area remnits of beatin' and battard
units and brigades "taged" along with the 29SS and some of
these units were schuma and alot of the schuma were Poles
ssssssoooooooo...................there you have it.
=Treu-Tapher-Gehorsam=
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Post by PAWEL_202 »

OH YEA And one more thing the 29SS was a
DIV. not a UNIT :oops: Easy mistake to make
if you havent been into "this stuff" very long

Let Me Know If I Can Help :wink:
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Post by Howler »

Regrettably, modern Russia's vision of WW2 is similar to Soviet times. There are too many lies in press and books, the sience sources are from communist times (so it cause many problems because of its mendacity), and there is also a great censorship.
For example, when I started to wrote my dissertation about Kaminskiy Brigade and Lokot District, only 2 professors in my Academy knew something about it.
Speaking about Vlasov, he looks like a traitor in Russia, and I think that it's looks like a truth. First he was a "good son of Stalin" and one of the main Red's warlords, but then he betrayed Soviet Union and started to serve for Reich. And later he betrayed also Germany. I can see him only as a traitor. Also he wasn't a good person - for example, during the war he had 3 wifes, first he left at home, second he had in soviet army and third he had after the capture by german troops. Women didn't know each other and Vlasov didn't make a divorse with any of them...
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Post by J.P. Slovjanski »

Russia is slowly waking to the reality that Vlassov was the true patriot. This is evident in some books like ASTs series on the ROA, or the Kolovrat song Heroes of the ROA.
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Post by Mad Volksdeutscher »

Pawel, JP--

Umm, I've got a thread on the 29th WSS started up You Know Where, in case you're up for it.

When you have time.

(After all, there's that creepy guy that got kicked out of Nat'l Alliance that must be dealt with Over There, and that REALLY obnoxious anarcho-syndicalist what just CAN'T play by the rules I've got to deal with Harshly & Severely!)

George Lepre, guys--You have it SOOOO easy over here. Take 'r easy!
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Post by Pirx »

Vlasov or Kaminski where traitors and criminals!
They where not interested about Russia or Russians but about power.
Not only them. Quisling in Norway, Bierut and Spychalski in Poland.
Vlasov was in 1941 Komandarm (General Leutenant) in Red Army.
Difference: Kaminski was a criminal, and his RONA whas a bunch of cowards, and butchers. Vlasov really dream about Russia under his power.
Kaminski was shooted by Germans after he and his companions raped German girls from KfD organisation.
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Post by Mad Volksdeutscher »

Yes, Pirx--

For after all, Iosif Dzugashvili (Stalin) was such a paragon of moral virtue (Didn't he rack up at least as high, if not higher body count than Hitler???)

And let us not forget Lavrenti'i Beria (When not running the Cheka/NKVD, he was molesting little kids!)
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Post by TheFerret »

Pirx wrote:Vlasov or Kaminski where traitors and criminals!
They where not interested about Russia or Russians but about power.
Not only them. Quisling in Norway, Bierut and Spychalski in Poland.
Vlasov was in 1941 Komandarm (General Leutenant) in Red Army.
Difference: Kaminski was a criminal, and his RONA whas a bunch of cowards, and butchers. Vlasov really dream about Russia under his power.
Kaminski was shooted by Germans after he and his companions raped German girls from KfD organisation.
I would recommend that you read the Prague Manifesto. This was a document signed by Russian exiles. I revealed that Vlasov and his supporters really dreamed of a Russia under a Social Democratic government.

The most revealing fact about Vlasov and him men was that when the Citizens of Prague rebelled against the Nazis they were joined by the troops of the ROA. As Alexander Solzynitsyn states, "The Czech Communists spoke for years of how they were liberated by the Russians, but how many remember which Russians they were liberated by."

Incidently, Vlasov is considered a hero by many Czechs today.
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Post by Pirx »

Vlasov was to 1941 the Stalins servant. He support red terror, he achieve position of Komandarm of 1st degree. Later he support Hitler war machine. Then TheFerret wrote that Vlasovs army supported Czechs rebells!!! This men (Vlasov) always was on winners side!
Still i think he was traitor.
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