Andrey Vlasov & the RLA

[Pirx]

He was member of soviet communist party WKP(b) since 1930.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

He was member of soviet communist party WKP(b) since 1930.

Hi Pirz, being a member of a communist party does not automatically make one a communist, just as membership in the NSDAP does not make one a national socialist. He might have joined to protect himself.......

[Pirx]

He might have joined to protect himself.......

?????
What a theory! He join to communist to protect himself or got power and join to nomenclature?
I lived many years in communist country, and believe me that what you post here is nonsense.

[Volgadon]

I don't know where J.P. Slovjanski gets his info from, but Vlasov is NOT viewed sympathetically by the majority of Russians. A few years ago members of a pro-monarchist group "Za Veru i Otechestvo" (For the Faith and the Fatherland) went to court to try and rehabilitate Vlasov, but the courts ruled against them. They, basically, are for anyone who did anything against the Bolsheviks/Soviets.
The kindest thing that could be said of Vlasov, is that he had a keen sense of self-preservation.
Ataman Krasnov is seen in a slightly better light, after all, he spent most of his life fighting for a cause, Vlasov seems to have lacked that.

[Annelie]

While researching Vlasov on the net some time ago, I found a Church site (US) where they remember Vlasov's
anniversay of death every year. This would have me to believe that some Russians are or were sympathetic
towards Vlasov.

[Volgadon]

The Russian Orthodox church abroad has the habit of adulating anyone seen as even remotely anti-Bolshevik, as they are mainly the descendants of White emigres.

[panzermahn]

I agree with what Volgadon mentioned about Vlasov.

IMO, I think Vlasov is also an circumstantial oppurtunist. Unlike Krasnov who spend his life fighting against the Bolsheviks, Vlasov turn against the Stalin when the 2nd Shock Army was trapped and was heading into destruction. Perhaps motivated by the situation would lead into remembering Vlasov being responsible for the destruction of 2nd Shock Army in 1942, Vlasov surrendered and begin persuading the Germans that he can raised an anti-Bolshevik Russian Liberation Army against Stalin. But in 1945, when the Germans were about to lose, Vlasov turn against the Germans and supported the uprising by Czech in Prague in 1945 and again, suddenly rejoining the Germans (for a short while) as the Red Army is approaching. He was hoping to demonstrate to the Western Allies that he is a viable alternative anti-Bolshevik force. When the Americans didn't want to negotiate with him or his generals, he was ready to pack it all up and escape to the west unlike General Helmuth von Pannwitz who willingly joined his Cossacks to captivity.

Vlasov happens to be an unlucky man with his Russian Liberation Army, somewhat akin to a Greek tragedy

Panzermahn

[sniper1shot]

The Russian Orthodox church abroad has the habit of adulating anyone seen as even remotely anti-Bolshevik, as they are mainly the descendants of White emigres.

This to me, sounds like some support for Vlasov from some Russians.

[Volgadon]

Rather, people of Russian heritage or descent. I'm talking about people who are 4th or 5th generation emigre.

[Glyndower]

The accusation that Vlasov was sentencing people to death in Leningrad during the purges is one I have not come across before. In 1930 Vlasov was a tactics instructor at the Leningrad Officers School then he went to Moscow on an instructor’s course and back to Leningrad as assistant to the chief instructor then on to the mobilisation department of the Leningrad Military Region. In 1935 he was given command of the 11th Infantry Regiment 4th Turkestan Division and later deputy commander of the 72nd Division. In 1938 Timoshenko appointed him to his staff and in the autumn of 1938 he was posted to China in November 1939 he returned and commanded the 99th Division.

The defeat of 2nd Shock Army is blamed on Vlasov but General Meretskov writing in a military journal after the war laid the blame on GHQ. It seems that while fighting on the Volkov front he received a letter from his wife which in code told him the secret police had searched his flat this probably made him think he would be a scapegoat for the defeat. Vlasov surrendered on July 12 1942 and was mainly well treated.

It seems that Vlasov genuinely believed that Germany would help him organise a Russian Liberation Army but all he was wanted for was his propaganda effect. Vlasov was hugely popular at this time attracting large crowds when he spoke behind the front emphasising Russian independence he even asked the crowd at one meeting whether they wished to be slaves of the Germans. After a conference in June 1943 attended by Hitler it became obvious he would not get permission to raise forces. He became disillusioned realising that it was hopeless and spent much of his time travelling meeting émigrés and people who maybe could help him and he seems to have started drinking heavily.

With the collapse of the eastern front the Germans thought again and in September 1944 Vlasov met Himmler and was given permission to raise ten divisions later changed to three. Prior to this Vlasov never commanded any formations and did not participate in any war crimes, some of the troops he was now given command over were scum but their prior behaviour was nothing to do with Vlasov.

Vlasov never wore a German uniform and decided to surrender with his men rather than commit suicide. They helped in the liberation of Prague after being asked by the resistance then marched towards the Americans who would not accept their surrender. One source says that Vlasov was offered a choice of confessing to treachery or of being tortured to death he refused to recant.

Vlasov was hugely popular and could have formed an anti communist army if the Nazis had not behaved so brutally and stupidly in Russia. This popularity meant Stalin went to great lengths to totally destroy Vlasov’s reputation pouring buckets of manure over it and much of this is accepted as fact even today. Once Vlasov made his decision to cooperate with Germany he was lost as he could not go back and the Germans were never going to agree to what he wanted.

A previous poster mentioned a book by Jurgen Thorwald I also have this book and have learned that it needs to be approached with caution as truth and half truths are mixed up.

[George Lepre]

Hi all -

With regard to books on the Vlassov movement, forum members should find this thread helpful:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1800

As far as English-language texts are concerned, most will agree that Catherine Andreyev's scholarly Vlassov and the Russian Liberation Movement is about as good as it gets regarding literature on this subject.

Best regards,

George

[Björn]

Hello!
Nothing to add, really, but "Pirx" wrote:

Vlasov or Kaminski where traitors and criminals!
They where not interested about Russia or Russians but about power.
Not only them. Quisling in Norway, Bierut and Spychalski in Poland.

I can assure that Quisling indeed had a mission of recreating Norway, not helping Germany. So Q does not belong in a cathegory spelling "Criminals" etc. Not that I am a big fan of any nationalists at all, to say the least, but still VQ was a reasonlable man after all. Any norwegian who led a Government during the occupation would have had the same fate.


B.

[Pirx]

The accusation that Vlasov was sentencing people to death in Leningrad during the purges is one I have not come across before. In 1930 Vlasov was a tactics instructor at the Leningrad Officers School then he went to Moscow on an instructor’s course and back to Leningrad as assistant to the chief instructor then on to the mobilisation department of the Leningrad Military Region. In 1935 he was given command of the 11th Infantry Regiment 4th Turkestan Division and later deputy commander of the 72nd Division. In 1938 Timoshenko appointed him to his staff and in the autumn of 1938 he was posted to China in November 1939 he returned and commanded the 99th Division.

He was member of Military Court in Leningrad 1937 - 1938, before he was in China.
If he was "well educated" general" why he agreed to fight Red Army autumn 1944? He believed in victory?

[Glyndower]

Catherine Andreyev in her very impressive book Vlasov and the Russian Liberation Movement makes no mention of this Leningrad episode. She says Vlasov was deputy commander of the 72nd Division Kiev Military Region prior to going to China in 1938.

Wilfred Strik-Strikfeldt the German liason officer with Vlasov in his book also never mentions this. The picture he paints of Vlasov is of a Russian patriot completly at odds with a man who would act as a judge in show trials.

Jurgen Thorwald was unfortunatly given to embelishment of events but his book is probably accurate in lots of things and he said that Vlasov was Chief of Staff at the 72nd Division in 1936 and 1937.

If Vlasov is the deputy commander of the 72nd Division in the Kiev region why would an officer be brought to Leningrad to preside over show trials. If this is true then its odd people writing about him have missed it.

As to why Vlasov fought on after 1944 when the position was hopeless we have according to Strik-Strikfeldt his own words "If Germany could resist for another 12 or 15 months we would have time to set up an appreciable power factor. This power factor with the support of the Wehrmacht and the smaller European countries, would presumably be something that America and England as well as Moscow would have to reckon with"

[Alpino]

Its interesting that a person such as Vlasov who was one of Zhukov and Stalin's up and coming golden boys turned traitor so quickly after being captured.He was one of the Heros that saved Moscow and was then personally selected by his mentors to lead the second shock army at Leningrad.There is much more to his reasoning in changing sides and I doubt it has any bearing on cowardice or weakness.In fact he gave the German command alot of head aches because of demands for his men and other issues in other words he was no patsy.It would be interesting to know whether he harbored hatred of the communist party or if family members had been repressed or killed by his own government.It is true that Soviet propaganda nad history has held him up as a traitor but again many people did not believe in the communist system in thier hearts though it was an unspoken thing.I believe most Russians gathered around the defense of the Motherland not Stalin or Lenin or the party although as others have said the second world war for Russia is full of Soviet history and still treated as such.