Please answer my questions.
I don't give a @#% about Alsace or Lorraine, I just know people from these regions escaped to France to avoid being German again. This should have been my only answer.
But please answer my questions?
Newbie Question... Alsace Lorraine
Moderator: George Lepre
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Tom Houlihan
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Hugueso, I believe that was his answer.M.H. wrote:Either you study history the right way or you better leave (like you already promised)
I submit that when someone belongs to a discussion group a mere week, and gets in a pissing match with someone who is a long time member of said, group, then one might wish to reconsider his approach.
Factual information has been presented. Can you provide resources to dispute it?
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pzrmeyer2
What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?
My God.... You're all small nazis... or what?
I never denied these regions are under both cultural influences... I just answered an post saying "they are under German (and only german) influence.
French propagandas.... Morrons....
My God.... You're all small nazis... or what?
I never denied these regions are under both cultural influences... I just answered an post saying "they are under German (and only german) influence.
French propagandas.... Morrons....
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pzrmeyer2
Hugueso wrote:What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?
My God.... You're all small nazis... or what?
I never denied these regions are under both cultural influences... I just answered an post saying "they are under German (and only german) influence.
French propagandas.... Morrons....
Strange, I don't recall Orwell in a brownshirt with his right arm raised....perhaps in your alternate history, where all Alsatians were proudly singing the Marsellaise in their French accents and costume?
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pzrmeyer2
Not at all.... Not at all..
As said before, Alsace gave the biggest number of Marechals and Generals to French revolutionary and napoleonic Armies.
Well, I guess you'll say these general officers were forced!!!!
Just a simple question my fellow American? Why didn't you gave Alsace and Lorraine back to Gemany in 1945....?
As said before, Alsace gave the biggest number of Marechals and Generals to French revolutionary and napoleonic Armies.
Well, I guess you'll say these general officers were forced!!!!
Just a simple question my fellow American? Why didn't you gave Alsace and Lorraine back to Gemany in 1945....?
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pzrmeyer2
Sadly, I didn't call the shots back in '45. What is lost on you is take a look at the names of those Marshals. Something about them sounds vaguely.....German?Hugueso wrote:Not at all.... Not at all..
As said before, Alsace gave the biggest number of Marechals and Generals to French revolutionary and napoleonic Armies.
Well, I guess you'll say these general officers were forced!!!!
Just a simple question my fellow American? Why didn't you gave Alsace and Lorraine back to Gemany in 1945....?
PS why such a violent reaction? My post stated simply that they share a heritage. You apparently feel otherwise.
No.
First I answered a post telling Alsace and Lorraine were not under a German influence, and I wrote that the influence changed accross history and that since 17th century, the influence has been mainly French.
After that, some people here claimed that these regions (should still) belong to Germany (while Germany did not exist at this time) so that they're German.
Finally they denied the status of Malgré Nous, and also denied the acts of the 3rd reich towards Alsatians and Lorrains.
I wonder why they deported so many of these good germans to camps... But I got no answers on this either.
If that help to conclude the post, my thoughts are :
1. Alsace and Lorraine are boundaries.
2. Across history, they changed of country, once they were German, once they were French, once one was German, and the other was French.
3. Since 17th century (before the USA even exist), they belong to France.
4. There is a shared influence and a local language which is a mix between several influences.
5. During the 20th century, Alsatians and Lorrains deeply felt French, this is why they were compelled to have a specific passport even when they were belonging to Germany. This is why they had very limited rights vs normal German citizens. This is why there were called Malgré Nous (despite there were also volunteers, like in all other occupied countries). This is why these Malgré Nous were qualified untrustful elements by their german officers. This is also why 540 000 of them were deported, mainly in camps. I cannot figure out that Germans would have deported their owns citizens, and particularly people who feel Germans and liberated by the German invasion. This is also why Germans expulsed Lorrains and Alsatians from their farms to install Farmers from Pomerania or Sudets.
There is a mix influence, of course... I've never denied that, I just said these regions were not under German influence only, and that they French for a long time now. I recognized the local language is close, but as you might not know... people speak French in Lorraine and Alsace...
I feel deeply sorry to see what occured, you can check my other posts on other topics, I'm just here to find out how my ancestors served in the Wehrmacht. I don't give a @#% about French or German propaganda, but I just noticed that finally the concert of nations decided that these regions are french, and this also was what inhabitants wanted. I guess these nations are right, and they probably thought about it without emotional feelings (particularly Americans and Russians).
By the way, they gave back Saarland to Germany, which I think is totally justified. The occupation of Saarland by France after WW1 was a scandal and is a shame.
I just feel sad, because I read that some people here are still using arguments that have been proved not to be justified, were used by Nazis and led to a war (like Poland, Alsace Lorraine, etc.), where millions of people died. More than sad, scared.
I wish we could all forget this kind of thoughts and live in peace, especially in Lorraine and Alsace which suffered a lot during the 20th century.
I like Germans, I like Germany... what I don't like is these arguments...
By the way, just to end with a smile :
Names of a few Napoleonian generals coming from Alsace and Lorraine :
Hugo : french name
Kellerman : german name
Rapp : french name
Kleber : german name
Lefebvre : french name
As you can see, there is a mix influence. The most important thing to note, is that despite they had a German name for some of them, they chosed to serve under Napoleon and France (who himself was from Corsica and did not even speak French when he was a kid, but I guess he's French nevertheless... and a dictator as well).
Its difficult to judge History, but we can learn from it.
Have a good day.
First I answered a post telling Alsace and Lorraine were not under a German influence, and I wrote that the influence changed accross history and that since 17th century, the influence has been mainly French.
After that, some people here claimed that these regions (should still) belong to Germany (while Germany did not exist at this time) so that they're German.
Finally they denied the status of Malgré Nous, and also denied the acts of the 3rd reich towards Alsatians and Lorrains.
I wonder why they deported so many of these good germans to camps... But I got no answers on this either.
If that help to conclude the post, my thoughts are :
1. Alsace and Lorraine are boundaries.
2. Across history, they changed of country, once they were German, once they were French, once one was German, and the other was French.
3. Since 17th century (before the USA even exist), they belong to France.
4. There is a shared influence and a local language which is a mix between several influences.
5. During the 20th century, Alsatians and Lorrains deeply felt French, this is why they were compelled to have a specific passport even when they were belonging to Germany. This is why they had very limited rights vs normal German citizens. This is why there were called Malgré Nous (despite there were also volunteers, like in all other occupied countries). This is why these Malgré Nous were qualified untrustful elements by their german officers. This is also why 540 000 of them were deported, mainly in camps. I cannot figure out that Germans would have deported their owns citizens, and particularly people who feel Germans and liberated by the German invasion. This is also why Germans expulsed Lorrains and Alsatians from their farms to install Farmers from Pomerania or Sudets.
There is a mix influence, of course... I've never denied that, I just said these regions were not under German influence only, and that they French for a long time now. I recognized the local language is close, but as you might not know... people speak French in Lorraine and Alsace...
I feel deeply sorry to see what occured, you can check my other posts on other topics, I'm just here to find out how my ancestors served in the Wehrmacht. I don't give a @#% about French or German propaganda, but I just noticed that finally the concert of nations decided that these regions are french, and this also was what inhabitants wanted. I guess these nations are right, and they probably thought about it without emotional feelings (particularly Americans and Russians).
By the way, they gave back Saarland to Germany, which I think is totally justified. The occupation of Saarland by France after WW1 was a scandal and is a shame.
I just feel sad, because I read that some people here are still using arguments that have been proved not to be justified, were used by Nazis and led to a war (like Poland, Alsace Lorraine, etc.), where millions of people died. More than sad, scared.
I wish we could all forget this kind of thoughts and live in peace, especially in Lorraine and Alsace which suffered a lot during the 20th century.
I like Germans, I like Germany... what I don't like is these arguments...
By the way, just to end with a smile :
Names of a few Napoleonian generals coming from Alsace and Lorraine :
Hugo : french name
Kellerman : german name
Rapp : french name
Kleber : german name
Lefebvre : french name
As you can see, there is a mix influence. The most important thing to note, is that despite they had a German name for some of them, they chosed to serve under Napoleon and France (who himself was from Corsica and did not even speak French when he was a kid, but I guess he's French nevertheless... and a dictator as well).
Its difficult to judge History, but we can learn from it.
Have a good day.
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pzrmeyer2
Sir,
Neither factual nor relevent
I knew several young Alsatians when I was there, all French speakers. Funny thing was, their grandparents' first language all was German. One's grandfather was an officer in the Waffen SS.
Have you ever considered the possibilty of expediency in getting ahead for these men? Perhpas they saw which way the political winds wre blowing at that time and attached themselves to the ascendant power. Much as in later times, some folks' loyalties depend on who is winning. A hardly suspect much German nationalism was vocalized or popular in Alsace in 1945. I'd bet the situation was different in say 1938.
I dont believe anyone made such a claim. The point was to refute the notion that somehow these lands are indisputably French, which they are not.After that, some people here claimed that these regions (should still) belong to Germany (while Germany did not exist at this time) so that they're German.
How did France treat its populations who collaborated with its enemies?Finally they denied the status of Malgré Nous, and also denied the acts of the 3rd reich towards Alsatians and Lorrains
3. Since 17th century (before the USA even exist), they belong to France.
Neither factual nor relevent
Much of this was due to the intense political indoctrination these people were subjected to. German was banned in some areas and schools and jobs were all taught French. I spent a lot of time in Alsace when I was younger, specifically around Strassburg and Kolmar, 2 cities with distinct German architecture and names. Take a look at the cleverly renamed tourist area "La Petite France"--there is nothing remotely French about it. I understand it was renamed this from its original name "Gerberviertel" much later in its history.5. During the 20th century, Alsatians and Lorrains deeply felt French...that they French for a long time now. I recognized the local language is close, but as you might not know... people speak French in Lorraine and Alsace...
I knew several young Alsatians when I was there, all French speakers. Funny thing was, their grandparents' first language all was German. One's grandfather was an officer in the Waffen SS.
Victors justice. France coveted these areas for their industry. It would be hardly inconvenient for the inhabitants to claim victim status after Germany's defeat and attach themselves to the winning side.the concert of nations decided that these regions are french, and this also was what inhabitants wanted. I guess these nations are right, and they probably thought about it without emotional feelings (particularly Americans and Russians).
So long as that peace means French rule, right?I wish we could all forget this kind of thoughts and live in peace, especially in Lorraine and Alsace which suffered a lot during the 20th century.
As long as they stay out of Alsace right?I like Germans, I like Germany... what I don't like is these arguments...
despite they had a German name for some of them, they chosed to serve under Napoleon and France
Have you ever considered the possibilty of expediency in getting ahead for these men? Perhpas they saw which way the political winds wre blowing at that time and attached themselves to the ascendant power. Much as in later times, some folks' loyalties depend on who is winning. A hardly suspect much German nationalism was vocalized or popular in Alsace in 1945. I'd bet the situation was different in say 1938.
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George Lepre
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