I have discovered records indicating my cousin seved in the German army in WWII, but he lists a place in Alsace-Lorraine, France as his home.
Would this make his status a sympathizer, a collaborator, or a conscript?
I am not familiar with the politics of that region at the time. I do know that the part of my family that came to America before the war always considered themselves German, even though they came from Alsace-Lorraine and had French sir-names.
Please excuse my ignorance on these matters!
Thanks,
Tom
Newbie Question... Alsace Lorraine
Moderator: George Lepre
Re: Newbie Question... Alsace Lorraine
The French region of Alsace-Moselle (the last is a part of Lorraine) was German from 1871 to 1918 and from 1940 to 1944-45.Sarge125 wrote:I have discovered records indicating my cousin seved in the German army in WWII, but he lists a place in Alsace-Lorraine, France as his home.
Would this make his status a sympathizer, a collaborator, or a conscript?
I am not familiar with the politics of that region at the time. I do know that the part of my family that came to America before the war always considered themselves German, even though they came from Alsace-Lorraine and had French sir-names.
Please excuse my ignorance on these matters!
Thanks,
Tom
So your cousin was most probably a conscript and they are usually known in France as "les Malgré Nous" ie they had no choice!
But some were volunteers, so who knows?
HTH
Amateurs talk tactics, historians study logistics, but what about amateur historians?
As C.Gillono points out, none of the above. He would have been considered a German citizen. When Alsace was "retaken" in June 1940, it was officially reincorporated into the "Großen deutschen Reich", thereby once again becoming part of Germany.Would this make his status a sympathizer, a collaborator, or a conscript?
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phylo_roadking
- Patron
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- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Most of them were forced to serve in the German Army
Hello,
I was born in Moselle (part of Alsace - Lorraine - Moselle), and my Family used to live there. Alsace Moselle has always been French except from 1870 to 1918 when France abandoned these territories to Germany after 1870 war.
During the occupation (1870 - 1918), the people living in Alsace-Moselle tried to preserve their French identity but were forced by the German governement to learn German language and act as german citizens.
The end of WW1 was the end of this nightmare for Alsace - Moselle when the territories went back to France. It has to be outlined that these territories suffered more than a lot during WW1 : Verdun for example is in these territories.
The thing is Hitler was considering Alsace Moselle as german territories and when he invaded France, the land has quickly been added to the Reich in a bigger territory called Gau Wetsmark.
French young men born between 1914 and 1927, who where all French, a lot of them spoke german because their parents "lived in Germany" between 1870 and 1918. But they were French and most of them served in the French Army from 1936 to 1940. When France capitulated, Hitler decided that all these youg men were German, despite they served in the French Army.
These young men, borned between 1914 and 1927 were forced to join the German Army between 1940 and 1945. If they would refuse, their family would be deported to a concentration camp (Ban Saint Martin, Ravensbrück or Auschwitz were most common destinations for these family).
So most of these young men decides to join the Wehrmacht to save their families. Operationnally some of them did'nt evne speak German... and we're incorporated in forces where they even didi not undertand orders. This was a political decision and German officers rapidly discovered that these young men cannot be fully trusted so 90% of them were send to Russia where they were obviously forced to fight as the Russian soldiers were ignoring their personal situation. There are testimonies that some of these soldiers escaped to join Russian froces and have been immediatly executed by Russian soldiers or NKVD officers.
After the war, the young men lived a true nightmare. Those who have captured by Allied Forces on the West Front (US, UK, Canadian and French armies) were very quickly released and most of them ended the war in the French Army. Their special status has been recognized as to double victims of war after 1946. But those who were captured by Russian forces were either immediately killed (as german soldiers) or send to Russian concentration camps, especially Tambow where thousands of them died. The survivors were send to France in 1946 only.
THese all young men were called "Malgré Nous", and really lived a nightmare during this war. 9 of my familiy members lived this... 4 of them died under the german uniform, mostly in Russia and Ukraine, 4 survived among 2 enter the Resistance and were medlad for that after the war. 1 never came back from Tambow in Russia, where he probably died in awful conditions.
Naturally, there are always black sheeps, and some French people joined the German army as volunteers... But 99,99% were just forced.
Hope it helps, contact me if you need more information.
I was born in Moselle (part of Alsace - Lorraine - Moselle), and my Family used to live there. Alsace Moselle has always been French except from 1870 to 1918 when France abandoned these territories to Germany after 1870 war.
During the occupation (1870 - 1918), the people living in Alsace-Moselle tried to preserve their French identity but were forced by the German governement to learn German language and act as german citizens.
The end of WW1 was the end of this nightmare for Alsace - Moselle when the territories went back to France. It has to be outlined that these territories suffered more than a lot during WW1 : Verdun for example is in these territories.
The thing is Hitler was considering Alsace Moselle as german territories and when he invaded France, the land has quickly been added to the Reich in a bigger territory called Gau Wetsmark.
French young men born between 1914 and 1927, who where all French, a lot of them spoke german because their parents "lived in Germany" between 1870 and 1918. But they were French and most of them served in the French Army from 1936 to 1940. When France capitulated, Hitler decided that all these youg men were German, despite they served in the French Army.
These young men, borned between 1914 and 1927 were forced to join the German Army between 1940 and 1945. If they would refuse, their family would be deported to a concentration camp (Ban Saint Martin, Ravensbrück or Auschwitz were most common destinations for these family).
So most of these young men decides to join the Wehrmacht to save their families. Operationnally some of them did'nt evne speak German... and we're incorporated in forces where they even didi not undertand orders. This was a political decision and German officers rapidly discovered that these young men cannot be fully trusted so 90% of them were send to Russia where they were obviously forced to fight as the Russian soldiers were ignoring their personal situation. There are testimonies that some of these soldiers escaped to join Russian froces and have been immediatly executed by Russian soldiers or NKVD officers.
After the war, the young men lived a true nightmare. Those who have captured by Allied Forces on the West Front (US, UK, Canadian and French armies) were very quickly released and most of them ended the war in the French Army. Their special status has been recognized as to double victims of war after 1946. But those who were captured by Russian forces were either immediately killed (as german soldiers) or send to Russian concentration camps, especially Tambow where thousands of them died. The survivors were send to France in 1946 only.
THese all young men were called "Malgré Nous", and really lived a nightmare during this war. 9 of my familiy members lived this... 4 of them died under the german uniform, mostly in Russia and Ukraine, 4 survived among 2 enter the Resistance and were medlad for that after the war. 1 never came back from Tambow in Russia, where he probably died in awful conditions.
Naturally, there are always black sheeps, and some French people joined the German army as volunteers... But 99,99% were just forced.
Hope it helps, contact me if you need more information.
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pzrmeyer2
Sorry,
I realized I made many english mistakes in my post. Shame on me.
Regarding your last question... Alsace and Lorraine are 2 different regions of France, Alsace has 2 departments (Haut Rhin, and Bas Rhin... or upper and lower Rhin river), and Lorraine has 4 departments (Moselle, Meurthe et Moselle, Meuse and Vosges).
These two regions and 6 departments have mostly always been French during history.
In 1870, after the war between France and Prussia, lost by France, it has been decided that France will give territories to Germany. These territories would be close to the borders.
Germany asked for Alsace in order to possess both sides of the Rhin River, and German experts also came to Lorraine in order to spot for some territories to claim for.
They visited the 4 departments of Lorraine, and decided to claim for Moselle, because of the steel and coal industry which was extremely developed in this area.
This is why, in 1870, Alsace has to join Germany, as well as only one department of Lorraine, the departmennt called Moselle.
Of course, in 1918, after the Allies victory, these territories went back to France.
And of course, when Hitler invaded France in 1940, he immediately re-merged Alsace and Moselle in the Gau Westmark district of Germany.
All in all, Alsace and Moselle belonged to Germany during 52 years in History, from 1870 to 1918 and from 1940 to 1944.
It is important to understand that Moselle does not belong to Alsace.
This history had significant consequences on my family. The father (born 1895 in Mosel and thus German) of my grand-father (born 1919 and thus French), fought in the German Army during WWI, against his cousin (born 1896 in Meurthe et Moselle, and thus French) who was living 20 km away and serving in the French Army. 20 years later, my grand-father, served in the French Army from 1938 to 1940, and then had to join the German army in 1941, etc.
Let me know if this is more clear. Please do not hesitate to contact me if needed.
I realized I made many english mistakes in my post. Shame on me.
Regarding your last question... Alsace and Lorraine are 2 different regions of France, Alsace has 2 departments (Haut Rhin, and Bas Rhin... or upper and lower Rhin river), and Lorraine has 4 departments (Moselle, Meurthe et Moselle, Meuse and Vosges).
These two regions and 6 departments have mostly always been French during history.
In 1870, after the war between France and Prussia, lost by France, it has been decided that France will give territories to Germany. These territories would be close to the borders.
Germany asked for Alsace in order to possess both sides of the Rhin River, and German experts also came to Lorraine in order to spot for some territories to claim for.
They visited the 4 departments of Lorraine, and decided to claim for Moselle, because of the steel and coal industry which was extremely developed in this area.
This is why, in 1870, Alsace has to join Germany, as well as only one department of Lorraine, the departmennt called Moselle.
Of course, in 1918, after the Allies victory, these territories went back to France.
And of course, when Hitler invaded France in 1940, he immediately re-merged Alsace and Moselle in the Gau Westmark district of Germany.
All in all, Alsace and Moselle belonged to Germany during 52 years in History, from 1870 to 1918 and from 1940 to 1944.
It is important to understand that Moselle does not belong to Alsace.
This history had significant consequences on my family. The father (born 1895 in Mosel and thus German) of my grand-father (born 1919 and thus French), fought in the German Army during WWI, against his cousin (born 1896 in Meurthe et Moselle, and thus French) who was living 20 km away and serving in the French Army. 20 years later, my grand-father, served in the French Army from 1938 to 1940, and then had to join the German army in 1941, etc.
Let me know if this is more clear. Please do not hesitate to contact me if needed.
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pzrmeyer2
I wish no disrespect on you, your family, or your heritage, but when you say
I dont agree. While it may be true politically that this area belonged to modern Germany only in these time periods, you seem to infer that German occupation of these areas was by some sort of "foreign" power. German roots in the area go back centuries, as evidenced by the names of persons and places, as well as the unique cultural, architectural and linguistic characteristics of the area. WHile perhaps politically affiliated with France, the region is much more cultuurally associated with Germany, despite repeated efforts to "Francoize" the region.All in all, Alsace and Moselle belonged to Germany during 52 years in History, from 1870 to 1918 and from 1940 to 1944.
Well...
No offense, but I just cannot let you say so...
Politically speaking, after the fall of Roman Empire, these regions (Alsace + Lorraine) belonged to the carolingian Empire, which is the dynasty of the Francs, who were of course the first French, and somehow kings of France for most of them. After the end of the carolingian Empire, the regions belonged half to the Kingdom of France (as far as Lorraine is concerned) half to small kingdoms emerging in this area of Europe, between Switzerland, Germany, Bavaria, and even Austria.
From 17th century, with the rise of France in Europe, Alsace and Lorraine were clearly under France influence. Indeed, these territories are natural borders for France : on this side of the rhin river, there is France, and this is Alsace, on the other side, it's Germany (which did not even exist as a whome country in the 17th century).
in 1648, with the treatise of Munster Wesphalia, Alsace and Lorraine were officially added to France. Louis XIV, who was quite a good political analyst (and came here a few times... his dad King Louis XV was married to Marie Leczynska daughet of the earl of Lorraine), decided that is was not that important that people in Alsace use French as an official language (at this time, in the south of France, people were often speaking italian, or dutch in the North of France). Practically, people in Alsace and Lorraine at this time were speaking a local language (between french and german), while well educated people often speak French, german and latin.
In 1675, The final victory of the French General Turenne finally assured that Alsace and Lorraine belong to France. Then, these 2 regions switched to a full French influence, even if they keep on talking their regional language. But more and more, French was the language used on a daily basis, innthe daily life.
After 1789, the ideas of the Revolution were very popular in Alsace and Lorraine (it would'n have been the case if they were under German influence).
These regions actively take part in the change of the political regime in France with very well known politicians (Dietrich, Rewbell, etc.) and among the most famous generals and marshalls of Naopleon : Kleber, Hugo, Kellermann, Rapp, Lefebvre. These 2 regions gave the biggest number of general officers to the French Army from 1789 to 1820. There are no such examples in Germany. Some people from Moselle even became Presidents of France.............!
(By the way, Joan of Arch also came from this region, and the less that you can say, is that she is French and under an French influence... She born 1412 and died 1431... and fought the English in France.. this is the reason of her death in Rouen, she has been burend alive by the English).
After the fall of Napoleon, Germany claimed to get back Alsace and Lorraine but in 1815, after a special request of the Tsar Alexander 1st, these two regions stayed French. They only became German in 1870.
But this is politics....
My family has been leaving in Lorraine and Alsace at least since 1620... so I guess we can say we're part of the culture of this area of France. One my ancestor was a French Senator in the French Senate representing a part of Lorraine. We speak French, but we also almost all speak or understand the regional language (mix of German and French), and German. For example, all legal documents are in French since 17th century.
But this is my own experience.
To close the debate, it is useful to know that in Lorraine and Alsace, over the past centuries, in the common language, they are a lot of insults that mean "German".... And usually when someone from Alsace or Lorraine qualifies you of German (with other words), it is almost always very insulting.
As far as Feldgrau.net is concerned... the 3rd Reich considered that Alsace and Lorraine were German.... but not enough to give responsibilities to people coming from these regions.
Young men we're forced to join the German Army, their family were threaten to be deported if young men tried to escape.
Under the German uniform, these youg men we're not authorized to fight in France or in South Europa, and we're almost all sent to Russia and the Ost front.
They we're not trusted by their officers and it was systematically wrote in their military file that the were from Alsace or Lorraine.
They of course cannot be officers for the same reasons... And may be the most important.... they we're called Malgré-Nous... which means "we wear in the german uniform in spite of us"... which wou'ldnt have been relevant for people under German influence....
By the end of 1944... 520 000 people from Alsace and Lorraine have been deported in Germany in camps... and 140 000 young men have been forced to join the German Army... Thousands of them died.
If you want to know more about that... Read the Mourre dictionnary of History, you'll see that during the German occupation of Alsace and Lorraine from 1870 to 1918, the two regions were submitted to an extemely severe regime by the German administration. German occupation of these areas was definitely some sort of "foreign" power!
The population was extremely resisting to the measures of gemanization and all deputies sent by the regions to the Reichstag we're opposants to Germany : they we're even shouting and talking in French in the German senate.
During this period, people of Alsace and Lorraine we're even forced to have a special passport to enter Germany.... despite they we're officially Germans!!! There has even been civil riots in 1913 in Alsace and Lorraine to get back to France.
So... sorry... these regions have not been under german influence... in the contrary they have been most of the time very French and very attached to France... Some people think that the regional language is German and thus think the regions we're under German influence... but it's almost like saying California is under an latino/mexican influence
Last example : the cross of the resistance during WW2, the symbol of De Gaulle, is the Cross of Lorraine, the emblem of the region, sign of deep relations between France and these regions.
By the way, a small part of architecture is influenced by german architecture, because a lot of modern existing buildings we're built under the german occupation. BUT...Almost all churchs are gothic (don't be mistaken by the word "Goth"), Gothic architecture borned in France, in the neighbourhood of Paris, in the 12th century... You can check that on Wikipedia. So in the 12th century... while in Germany they were mostly building Roman Churchs, in Alsace and Lorraine, people we're building gothic cathedrals. By this time, there wer also countless Templars commanderies in lorraine and Alsace (there is one 5 km away from my parents home for example), when teutonics were in germany.
I think most of your opinion comes from the language... and there is another thing you need to know, during the German occupation 1870-1918, people in Lorraine we're commonly forced to change their family name to germanize it (as weel as the name of cities or places we're changed by the German administration). Later, in 1943, when people when Lorraine or Alsace refused to germanize their family name, they were often convocated by the Gestapo and even deported (check : http://www.ville-selestat.fr/sites/SIUB ... e21_S9.pdf).
So you have examples of very popular families in Alsace whose family name was Goteau or Gut in 1870.. Germans forced them to switched to Gott... And when they switched back in 1918, the administration sometime switched to another French translation like Gotte, or even Dieu (translation of Gott/God in french!!!).
Language is not enough to determine an influence... But tThe tragic destiny of people of Alsace and Lorraine clearly show that the regions were much more under a French influence than under a German one....
I hope it helps those who might be interested.
No offense, but I just cannot let you say so...
Politically speaking, after the fall of Roman Empire, these regions (Alsace + Lorraine) belonged to the carolingian Empire, which is the dynasty of the Francs, who were of course the first French, and somehow kings of France for most of them. After the end of the carolingian Empire, the regions belonged half to the Kingdom of France (as far as Lorraine is concerned) half to small kingdoms emerging in this area of Europe, between Switzerland, Germany, Bavaria, and even Austria.
From 17th century, with the rise of France in Europe, Alsace and Lorraine were clearly under France influence. Indeed, these territories are natural borders for France : on this side of the rhin river, there is France, and this is Alsace, on the other side, it's Germany (which did not even exist as a whome country in the 17th century).
in 1648, with the treatise of Munster Wesphalia, Alsace and Lorraine were officially added to France. Louis XIV, who was quite a good political analyst (and came here a few times... his dad King Louis XV was married to Marie Leczynska daughet of the earl of Lorraine), decided that is was not that important that people in Alsace use French as an official language (at this time, in the south of France, people were often speaking italian, or dutch in the North of France). Practically, people in Alsace and Lorraine at this time were speaking a local language (between french and german), while well educated people often speak French, german and latin.
In 1675, The final victory of the French General Turenne finally assured that Alsace and Lorraine belong to France. Then, these 2 regions switched to a full French influence, even if they keep on talking their regional language. But more and more, French was the language used on a daily basis, innthe daily life.
After 1789, the ideas of the Revolution were very popular in Alsace and Lorraine (it would'n have been the case if they were under German influence).
These regions actively take part in the change of the political regime in France with very well known politicians (Dietrich, Rewbell, etc.) and among the most famous generals and marshalls of Naopleon : Kleber, Hugo, Kellermann, Rapp, Lefebvre. These 2 regions gave the biggest number of general officers to the French Army from 1789 to 1820. There are no such examples in Germany. Some people from Moselle even became Presidents of France.............!
(By the way, Joan of Arch also came from this region, and the less that you can say, is that she is French and under an French influence... She born 1412 and died 1431... and fought the English in France.. this is the reason of her death in Rouen, she has been burend alive by the English).
After the fall of Napoleon, Germany claimed to get back Alsace and Lorraine but in 1815, after a special request of the Tsar Alexander 1st, these two regions stayed French. They only became German in 1870.
But this is politics....
My family has been leaving in Lorraine and Alsace at least since 1620... so I guess we can say we're part of the culture of this area of France. One my ancestor was a French Senator in the French Senate representing a part of Lorraine. We speak French, but we also almost all speak or understand the regional language (mix of German and French), and German. For example, all legal documents are in French since 17th century.
But this is my own experience.
To close the debate, it is useful to know that in Lorraine and Alsace, over the past centuries, in the common language, they are a lot of insults that mean "German".... And usually when someone from Alsace or Lorraine qualifies you of German (with other words), it is almost always very insulting.
As far as Feldgrau.net is concerned... the 3rd Reich considered that Alsace and Lorraine were German.... but not enough to give responsibilities to people coming from these regions.
Young men we're forced to join the German Army, their family were threaten to be deported if young men tried to escape.
Under the German uniform, these youg men we're not authorized to fight in France or in South Europa, and we're almost all sent to Russia and the Ost front.
They we're not trusted by their officers and it was systematically wrote in their military file that the were from Alsace or Lorraine.
They of course cannot be officers for the same reasons... And may be the most important.... they we're called Malgré-Nous... which means "we wear in the german uniform in spite of us"... which wou'ldnt have been relevant for people under German influence....
By the end of 1944... 520 000 people from Alsace and Lorraine have been deported in Germany in camps... and 140 000 young men have been forced to join the German Army... Thousands of them died.
If you want to know more about that... Read the Mourre dictionnary of History, you'll see that during the German occupation of Alsace and Lorraine from 1870 to 1918, the two regions were submitted to an extemely severe regime by the German administration. German occupation of these areas was definitely some sort of "foreign" power!
The population was extremely resisting to the measures of gemanization and all deputies sent by the regions to the Reichstag we're opposants to Germany : they we're even shouting and talking in French in the German senate.
During this period, people of Alsace and Lorraine we're even forced to have a special passport to enter Germany.... despite they we're officially Germans!!! There has even been civil riots in 1913 in Alsace and Lorraine to get back to France.
So... sorry... these regions have not been under german influence... in the contrary they have been most of the time very French and very attached to France... Some people think that the regional language is German and thus think the regions we're under German influence... but it's almost like saying California is under an latino/mexican influence
Last example : the cross of the resistance during WW2, the symbol of De Gaulle, is the Cross of Lorraine, the emblem of the region, sign of deep relations between France and these regions.
By the way, a small part of architecture is influenced by german architecture, because a lot of modern existing buildings we're built under the german occupation. BUT...Almost all churchs are gothic (don't be mistaken by the word "Goth"), Gothic architecture borned in France, in the neighbourhood of Paris, in the 12th century... You can check that on Wikipedia. So in the 12th century... while in Germany they were mostly building Roman Churchs, in Alsace and Lorraine, people we're building gothic cathedrals. By this time, there wer also countless Templars commanderies in lorraine and Alsace (there is one 5 km away from my parents home for example), when teutonics were in germany.
I think most of your opinion comes from the language... and there is another thing you need to know, during the German occupation 1870-1918, people in Lorraine we're commonly forced to change their family name to germanize it (as weel as the name of cities or places we're changed by the German administration). Later, in 1943, when people when Lorraine or Alsace refused to germanize their family name, they were often convocated by the Gestapo and even deported (check : http://www.ville-selestat.fr/sites/SIUB ... e21_S9.pdf).
So you have examples of very popular families in Alsace whose family name was Goteau or Gut in 1870.. Germans forced them to switched to Gott... And when they switched back in 1918, the administration sometime switched to another French translation like Gotte, or even Dieu (translation of Gott/God in french!!!).
Language is not enough to determine an influence... But tThe tragic destiny of people of Alsace and Lorraine clearly show that the regions were much more under a French influence than under a German one....
I hope it helps those who might be interested.
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George Lepre
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- Location: United States
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phylo_roadking
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...have you BEEN to East L.A. ???Some people think that the regional language is German and thus think the regions we're under German influence... but it's almost like saying California is under an latino/mexican influence
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Poor French...always the victims! *snif*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-German_enmity
When you read that you will see it was mostly France who startet wars and stole land...also Alsace!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-German_enmity
When you read that you will see it was mostly France who startet wars and stole land...also Alsace!
...The Thirty Years' War left large parts of southern Germany devastated, a situation France took advantage of to expand its territories, for example by annexing Alsace and Strasbourg....
Pooor, pooooor Frenchies!Historical Context
France and Germany can both trace their history as kingdoms to the division of the Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne in the Treaty of Verdun in 843. Ambitions to the senior imperial status and the implicit role of leadership over Western Europe that it held were a continual source of friction between France and the states of Germany throughout the medieval and early renaissance periods.
France-Habsburg rivalry
The sequence of events started in 1516 with the France-Habsburg rivalry between the kingdom of France and the House of Habsburg, the rulers of the Holy Roman Empire and, by marriage, of Spain. The Thirty Years' War left large parts of southern Germany devastated, a situation France took advantage of to expand its territories, for example by annexing Alsace and Strasbourg. As a result of this aggression, the League of Augsburg and finally the international Grand Alliance was formed to defend the Palatinate against France.
French-Prussian enmity
The rise of a new German power, Prussia, forced Austria to ally with France in the Seven Years' War.
In the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars, the leaders of both Prussia and Austria now fought not only against a fellow monarch, but against a people, which carried the conflict to new levels.
Napoleon put an end to the Holy Roman Empire in the early 19th century and reshaped the political map of the German states which were still divided. The wars, often fought in Germany, and with Germans on both sides such as in the Battle of Leipzig, also marked the beginning of the French-German hereditary enmity. Napoleon directly incoporated German-speaking areas such as the Rhineland and Hamburg into his First French Empire, and treated the monarchs of the remaining German states as his vassals. Modern German nationalism was born in opposition to French domination under Napoleon. In the recasting of the map of Europe after Napoleon's defeat, the German-speaking teritories in the Rhineland adjoining France were put under the rule of Prussia, the most militarily powerful German state.
[edit] French-German enmity
During the first half of the 19th century, many Germans looked forward to a unification of the German states, though some German leaders and most foreign powers were opposed to any such unification. The German nationalist movement believed that a united Germany would replace France as the dominant land power in Western Europe. This argument was aided by demographic changes; since the middle ages, France had had the largest population in Western Europe, but in the nineteenth century its population stagnated (a trend which contined until the second half of the twentienth century), and the population of the German states overtook it, and continued to rapidly increase.
In 1840, to distract attention from other problems, French leaders like Victor Hugo and Adolphe Thiers claimed that France should own the left bank of the Rhine (described as France's "natural boundary"), as it had under Napoleon, even though both banks had always been inhabited by German speakers. This Rhine crisis (de:Rheinkrise) gave birth to "Rhine songs" like Rheinlied, Das Lied der Deutschen and Die Wacht am Rhein which express the patriotic yet defensive sentiments among Germans of the time.
Ironically, the eventual unification of Germany was triggered by France itself, with its declaration of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 and subsequent quick defeat and surrender of Emperor Napoleon III. Yet, the French people carried on with warfare for several months, including guerilla warfare by francs-tireurs fighting outside the laws of war. Finally forced to admit defeat after a lenghty siege of Paris, the French had to return the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine to the Germans, and Germany replaced France as the leading land power in Europe.
Crap!Hugueso wrote: Language is not enough to determine an influence... But tThe tragic destiny of people of Alsace and Lorraine clearly show that the regions were much more under a French influence than under a German one....
Much more under French influence my ass...Being loyal to Germany wasn't easy under the "french liberators"!...Always closely tied to the Rhine River which forms its eastern boundary, Alsace has found itself a border region for most of its history. It was first conquered by Julius Caesar in the 1st century BC and remained a part of the Roman province of Prima Germania for the next six centuries. The region was conquered by the Alemanni, a Germanic tribe, in the 5th century AD and then by Clovis and the Franks in 496. Under his Merovingian successors the inhabitants were Christianized.
In the ninth century, this region became part of the heartland of the re-constituted Roman (more accurately "Carolingian") Empire of Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse). When Charlemagne's grandsons divided his Empire at the Treaty of Verdun of 843, the region was in the middle of Lorraine (Lotharingia), part of a narrow middle strip granted to Lothar with German- and French-speaking kingdoms to either side
...The territory, composed of Alsace and parts of Lorraine, belonged to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation from the year 921, but was gradually annexed by France after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648....
One wonders why???A short-lived independence after World War I was ended by French troops in 1918 and the 1919 Treaty of Versailles.
Well...
I'm not here to discuss the respective merits of France and Germany over History.
I was just pointing out that Lorraine and Alsace feel and felt French. If they would have been Germanphiles... I guess people from these regions would'nt have been deported, or forced to enrol as Malgré Nous. Or may be is this another silly act from 3rd Reich to also deport people you want to add to your nation.
By the way, the Holy Roman Empire was not German.... "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation", lol, this does not even exists.
And Charlemagne is not German either... lol. Look what wikipedia says :
Charlemagne or Charles the Great (742 or 747 – 28 January 814) was the King of the Franks (768–814) who conquered Italy and took the Iron Crown of Lombardy in 774 and, on a visit to Rome in 800, was crowned Emperor by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, presaging the revival of the Roman imperial tradition in the West in the form of the Holy Roman Empire. By his foreign conquests and internal reforms, Charlemagne helped define Western Europe and the Middle Ages. His rule is also associated with the Carolingian Renaissance, a revival of the arts and education in the West.
He is a Frank... and as all people know Franks were Germans... lol. This is why Germans call France... Frankreich... LOL LOL.
This is sad, man, war is over since 1945. Lorraine and Alsace have been invaded 2 times by Germany over the past century... for nothing.
All nations in the world, including Germany now recognize that these regions belong to France... Except you?
Personnally I like German people very much, I at least spend a week or two every year in Munich or Berlin. And so does my family.
I think the purpose of this forum is not about querels between countries... and neither about querels between people.
I just answered a post. Many people seem to agree. History itself seems to agree, NATO and UNO agree... MH does not agree? Well I think we'll survive this.
I'm not here to discuss the respective merits of France and Germany over History.
I was just pointing out that Lorraine and Alsace feel and felt French. If they would have been Germanphiles... I guess people from these regions would'nt have been deported, or forced to enrol as Malgré Nous. Or may be is this another silly act from 3rd Reich to also deport people you want to add to your nation.
By the way, the Holy Roman Empire was not German.... "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation", lol, this does not even exists.
And Charlemagne is not German either... lol. Look what wikipedia says :
Charlemagne or Charles the Great (742 or 747 – 28 January 814) was the King of the Franks (768–814) who conquered Italy and took the Iron Crown of Lombardy in 774 and, on a visit to Rome in 800, was crowned Emperor by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, presaging the revival of the Roman imperial tradition in the West in the form of the Holy Roman Empire. By his foreign conquests and internal reforms, Charlemagne helped define Western Europe and the Middle Ages. His rule is also associated with the Carolingian Renaissance, a revival of the arts and education in the West.
He is a Frank... and as all people know Franks were Germans... lol. This is why Germans call France... Frankreich... LOL LOL.
This is sad, man, war is over since 1945. Lorraine and Alsace have been invaded 2 times by Germany over the past century... for nothing.
All nations in the world, including Germany now recognize that these regions belong to France... Except you?
Personnally I like German people very much, I at least spend a week or two every year in Munich or Berlin. And so does my family.
I think the purpose of this forum is not about querels between countries... and neither about querels between people.
I just answered a post. Many people seem to agree. History itself seems to agree, NATO and UNO agree... MH does not agree? Well I think we'll survive this.