13th French SS man at Bad Reichenall massacre

[Laurent Daniel]

That story about Leclerc was ridiculous! There were too many people who attested to his involvement.

Who?
The sole testimonies I have are those of two priest who where chaplain of the 2eme DB, they never mention Leclerc.

If I got it properly, you are French, Le Page.
Extract of comments on the book of J.C. Notin:

"Quelle est la responsabilite exacte de Leclerc dans l'execution de douze jeunes W-SS francas arretes a Bad Reichenhall au debut de mai 1945 ? L'affaire est grave, note l'auteur, puisqu'elle mel l'icone de la Liberation et l'execution de douze prisonniers. Tre่s judicieusement, il la replace dans son contexte : Leclerc vient d'apprendre les horreurs qui ont eu pour theatre le camp de Dachau, non loin de la ; il est profondement bouleverse. Le meme jour, on lui ame่ne les douze prisonniers. Il les interroge, puis leur demande s'ils n'ont pas honte de servir sous l'uniforme allemand. L'un d'eux replique : "Et vous ? Vous portez bien l'uniforme americain ! Propos pour le moins facheux. Agace, Leclerc s'eloigne, non sans ordonner a ses adjoints : "Debarrassez-moi de ces gens-la !" On connait la suite. A-t-il reellement voulu - ou ordonne - la mort sans jugement de ces prisonniers ? Rien ne l'atteste. Cette affaire, conclut l'auteur, n'est qu'un des horribles visages de la guerre qui n'en a que tre่s peu de beaux. C'est l'evidence meme."


I don't have (yet) that book but if you can get it and tell us here your opinion, welcome. I don't think that the opinion of a serious historian can be dismissed simply as being "ridiculous".

[Le Page]

Daniel, mon ami...

I am sorry I don't speak French. I'll run that text through Babel Fish later.

Yes, whomever gave the order to shoot, will probably never be known. But I think Leclerc had knowledge, anyway. I just can't believe he didn't know.

Is that chaplian of the 2e DB, pere Fouquet? He claims that the decision was made at divisional headquarters and after a telephone converstation with General Leclerc.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi mon ami

Daniel, mon ami...
I am sorry I don't speak French

Gimme sometime, I'll be back with translations of the testimonies of Father Gaume, Father Fouquet and the comments re. J.C.Notin book in Anglishe barbarian language.

This week end, promised

[Rudi S.]

Hello Laurent,
Your statement: "Leclerc was an aristocrat and a general. He would not have been using such trivial language to order an execution." makes sense. I would say that with a 95% certainty that Leclerc meant to deal with it the "correct" or "legal" way.
Rudi S.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Rudi,
Because of that new book, the debate is raging in some French forums on that topic.
On one hand, some people agree with that statement and my (And your) way to interpretate it.
But, on the other hand, some other explain that the 2nd DB was a regular Army Division, not a troop of wild Partisans. So, a delicate and difficult act like executing POW can't be done unless the top hierarchy, i.e. the HQ, i.e. Leclerc gave a greenlight.

So, I as mentioned above, I will from my end conclude... a bit later!

By the way, Rudi, would you like to learn French? Some non-english speaking members of those French forums are terribly frustrated not to be able to communicate with you (That statement appplies also to the other Vet of Feldgrau)

[panzermahn]

Hi Rudi,
Because of that new book, the debate is raging in some French forums on that topic.
On one hand, some people agree with that statement and my (And your) way to interpretate it.
But, on the other hand, some other explain that the 2nd DB was a regular Army Division, not a troop of wild Partisans. So, a delicate and difficult act like executing POW can't be done unless the top hierarchy, i.e. the HQ, i.e. Leclerc gave a greenlight.

So, I as mentioned above, I will from my end conclude... a bit later!

By the way, Rudi, would you like to learn French? Some non-english speaking members of those French forums are terribly frustrated not to be able to communicate with you (That statement appplies also to the other Vet of Feldgrau)

Lieutenant Yves Cortadellas, the commander of the firing squad, actually spent a night with those condemned men and talking with them. He knew that those men are soldiers and Leclerc's decision was quite illegal (that's why he protested to him in the first place) and there should be at least a military court to judge them whether they were guilty of treason or not.

Regards
Panzermahn

[sid guttridge]

Hi Panzermahn,

It would seem pretty futile to hold a court martial now.

The issue is not really whether they were guilty or not. They were captured in German uniform, so they were guilty of treason beyond reasonable doubt.

The only issue is whether Leclerc was guilty of putting them to death illegally. The answer to that seems equally probably yes.

But was an injustice done? Probably not. Death is a recognised punishment for treason.

Were they unlucky? Probably, because few (if any?) other French ex-W-SS men were sentenced to death for treason. Heck, Jean Mabire made a career out of interviewing them!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

modern court martial? even though I agree with that, it is not possible as Leclerc has already died.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Sid,

Were they unlucky? Probably, because few (if any?) other French ex-W-SS men were sentenced to death for treason. Heck, Jean Mabire made a career out of interviewing them!

None, I repeat NONE of the former French Volunteers to the Eastern Front who managed to survive the war, the POW camps and to reach back France were condemned to death. Jail sentences only and they were all, I repeat ALL, amnistied in 1950 by President Vincent Auriol.

Concerning Jean Mabire, well, he also made a carrer out of being a great author. Please read it as "AUTHOR", not historian, you know what I mean.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Concerning Jean Mabire, well, he also made a carrer out of being a great author. Please read it as "AUTHOR", not historian, you know what I mean.

historical novels

[Rudi Welz]

Yesterday we wanted to honor the murdered french comrades (like Sid traitors !) on the memorial in Kugelbach, as we used to do the last 40 years. A lot of comrades from France, Germany, Italia and even Finland and Denmark wanted to do the same. But what happened?
The bavarian Bereitschaftspolizei was odered to disturb this event as much as possible.
8 big policecars were waiting around the ways to Kugelbach and the inmates (all in black) controlled the visitors, took fotos of everybody, even from all licencplates of the cars, no matter from Germany, Italy or France.Hours before they hadn't allowed visitors
to go into the cemetery in Bad Reichenhall as they wanted to. They got controlled and had to build groups with 1 german, 1 french and/or 1 italian visitor, than they were allowed to go in.
On the memorial in Kugelbach were about 100 visitors and 50 policemen in uniform (black) orin civil clothes.
Nobody was allowed to speak to the auditorium, we were only allowed a minute's silence memory of our comrades.
I know from other places over the world that a hornist plays a song, but our hornist wasn't allowed to play. So we song "Ich hatt`einen Kameraden" and than the "Deutschlandlied".
Only a danish comrad didn't care what police said and said a few words about the comradship during wartime.
In the evening a new sqad of policemen arrived and wanted to know where the "torchlightprocession" will be on. Sorry, they had to leave with red heads, because nobody would be such an idiot to make a torchlightprocession!
It's embarrassing, that just in this days a french highschoolclass is visiting Bad Reichenhall and they could see and feel in practice how democracy works in Germany.
I am ashamed about this bavarian politicans who are responsible for this policeaction. Maybe that some day this nice memorial will be removed over night like the nameplates of the men who are buried in the Spöttinger Friedhof in Landsberg. (This was ordered by the former bav. minister Weiss (CSU). Poor Germany!
PS: About the "aristocrat and general" Leclerc: For me this means nothing, because aristocrats and general oderered massacres during WW II and after it, some generals are still wanted in Den Haag.
as much as I know and heard bya french comrad yesterday, there is something "running" in France against this famous "hero" , they want to find out what this fine man did before Karlstein. We can wait!
Arminius

[sid guttridge]

Hi Arminius,

Yup, traitors.

I can see no problem with the police action you describe. You were able to have a dignified minutes silence in memory but were not allowed to hold an old comrades association parade or political rally on the site. Where's the problem? Displaying respectful memory doesn't require the presence of others, speeches, songs or bugles. Indeed, it doesn't even require a pilgimage to the spot!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rudi Welz]

Hi Sid,

since I know your view I am not astonished about your reply.
I am sure, that a lot of other users don't agree with you, special the veterans of WW II .

Cheers

Arminius

[sid guttridge]

Hi Arminius,

Actually that is the first time I have expressed this view.

Perhaps you could explain why displaying respectful memory necessarily requires a pilgrimage, the massed presence of others, speeches, songs or bugles?

I would suggest that all these things are not for the benefit of the dead but for the satisfaction of the living.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rudi Welz]

Hi Sid,

as much as I know - and I am old enough to remember - there will be some pilgrimage, the presence of those who want to remember, some speeches and even songs or bugles in all countries where people or veterans display respectful memory.
What the hell is so bad on this? It is tradition since centuries and nobody cared.
Try for example to disturb a memory in Arlington or in France like it happened yesterday in Kugelbach and you will see what happens.

Cheers

Arminius