13th French SS man at Bad Reichenall massacre

[sid guttridge]

Hi Arminius,

Absolutely true, but is any of it necessary to show genuine, sincere respect for the dead?

I would again suggest that all these things are not for the benefit of the dead but for the satisfaction of the living.

I very much doubt that one could hold the sort of public event you describe in a cemetery in any country without getting prior permission. Was prior permission given for a public, rather than private, rememberance at Kugelbach?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rudi Welz]

Hi Sid,
I am sorry, but this is not a cemetery, it is just a memorial for those 12 soldiers and all foreign soldiers who passed away on the eastern front.
I think that the government has nothing to do with this memorial because it was build with the money of the owners on private ground.
For 40 years nobody cared, just in the last and in this year. In the last year there were only some policemen and some members from the so called Verfassungsschutz there. Thgey didn't feel so good and one of them said, that they wouldn't be there if they wouldn't be ordered. Tell me what shall happen if old men meet once a year and remember their comrades?
Cheers
Rudi

[haen2]

To Sid, and all our soulmates of the left
Can someone, without jumping on some politically correct bandwagon, explain to me, why all over the world, ex-soldiers, and / or their families are allowed and even encouraged to honor the memories of those who served their country, their legion, and / or their ideals ?
Wat happened the in Bavaria is shamefull and spiteful of those who cannot extinguish the memories about those who fell in a civilzed way.
I have never been to any of these memorial meetings, nor did I feel the need to join a veterans organisation. i was too busy creating a new life in the U.S.
I am now SORRY that I have not; one more would not have made a difference, but in retrospect i would have felt a lot better about myself and my fallen comrades.
What the bavarian police did, may have been perfectly legal, but so was at the time, the prevention of blacks to vote in the U.S. with the cooperation of sherriffs and police departments.
"Ach Deutschalnd wie bist du betrogen "
HN

[Annelie]

Well Sid,

I am in total agreement with Arminius.

I disagree with you that paying respect is just for the living but that there is more to this. Not only is it traditional but showing respect for ones
comrades is or should be allowed. Why we have Nov. 11th, in which
we all visit Memorials to the fallen in which many speeches and flowers
are laid. Yes, you are correct one does not need to be there in person
but "IF they should like to show their respect at the memorials
or grave sites this too should be.

Should only showing respect to the fallen only be allowed to the Allies?
I think once again you have shown your prejudices towards a certain
group of men. Try to be unbiased. Really it doesn't matter what you
think only what those involved think and feel. Of course you have
the right to give your opinion but then so do others.

Yes, what happened in Bavaria is shameful considering its all about
politics.

If I had been in Bavaria I would have liked to be present and show respect just like I have in Arlington Cemetry and other Cemetries around
the country and the world.

The saddest thing to see is Memorials and graves to which are abandoned
and forgotten.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Folks:
I guess I was raised differently by my parents, but when old people get together to do something peaceful and legal, one should leave them the hell alone. Everyone remembers their past in different ways and, to some, symbolic gestures are a great comfort to them. I frequently visit places of significance to me, my family, and my country. It helps me to remember. It sounds to me like all these vets were doing was paying respects to comrades; why can't people let them be? These old folks are going to pass on soon and want to remember a significant part of their past. Leave them alone.

[Paddy Keating]

I can't believe some of what I am reading here but I risk being banned again if I say more than that.

PK

[Paddy Keating]

Hi Panzermahn,

It would seem pretty futile to hold a court martial now.

The issue is not really whether they were guilty or not. They were captured in German uniform, so they were guilty of treason beyond reasonable doubt.

The only issue is whether Leclerc was guilty of putting them to death illegally. The answer to that seems equally probably yes.

But was an injustice done? Probably not. Death is a recognised punishment for treason.

Were they unlucky? Probably, because few (if any?) other French ex-W-SS men were sentenced to death for treason. Heck, Jean Mabire made a career out of interviewing them!

Cheers,

Sid.

Given that the Vichy government was the legal authority in France from June 1940 to September 1944 or thereabouts, the German occupation of Vichy France in 1942 notwithstanding, Frenchmen who joined the German armed forces cannot really be accused of treason because they were permitted to do so by the legal French government of the day.

The execution of the French Waffen-SS men was always said to be a consequence of Leclerc's loss of temper after the officer commanding the detachment, in response to Leclerc's question about they were doing in German uniform, responded by asking Leclerc what he and his men were doing in American uniforms.

Whatever the case, even if the French Waffen-SS men were guilty of treason, and that's a moot point, their execution was illegal. They were captured enemy combattants and thus protected under the Geneva Convention. They should have been subjected to due legal process, meaning a fair trial. Even the likes of Julius Streicher and Rudolf Höss got trials before being executed! And these young men were just soldiers who doubtless joined to fight against Bolshevism, not for Nazism.

They were actually no more guilty of treason than the young French-Alsatians who helped to perpetrate the Oradour-sur-Glane reprisal. Some of them were tried, of course, but not for treason. They were tried for murder in 1951 but let off to avoid trouble in Alsace.

Had the French Waffen-SS men who had the misfortune to fall into the hands of Leclerc survived the experience, they might have been tried in the manner of, for instance, former BFC men in the UK or other foreign volunteers who found themselves in trouble after the war. But, as you yourself point out, they would have stood a good chance of escaping execution, like the majority of French volunteers.

PK

[pzrmeyer2]

I can't believe some of what I am reading here but I risk being banned again if I say more than that.

PK

ditto that. incredible...

[pzrmeyer2]

Yup, traitors.

I'm curious, Sid, do you regard the so-called Seydlitz troops, the NKFD, etc, as well as the hundreds of German Communists like Ulbricht, Mielke , the Wolf Brothers, etc awho fled to the USSR as traitors too?

I mean, they wore enemy (and sometimes friendly) uniforms and actively undermined their country.

[Loïc L.]

Puppet Regime of Vichy or not,they were traitors, Germany wasn't in peace with France, only an armistice, occupying by a military force the territory, having annexed de facto French Departments, keeping 2 millions of Prisoners of War and Pétain's regime, authorized enlistment in an foreign army in 1943 after the occupation of the Free Zone, before it was prohibited, since 1940 if I remember in order to dissuade enlistments in the de Gaulle's Free French Forces.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi, everybody,
There are 2 things within the story of the police at the memorial:

1 - The right of the veterans and their families to pay respect to their fallen comrades or parents. There, I fully agree with Haen and others, sorry Sid.

2 - BUT there is a slight problem that you may not know about, gentlemen. Extreme right loose neo-nazis groups are trying, since few years, to "recuperate" (Hijack) the veterans of the W-SS for their own political interest. While it is obvious to me, and many others, that the motivations of the foreign volounteers are completely different than the motivations of the XXIst century Neo-Nazis, few veterans have been abused.

So, what the bavarian policemen were doing, IMHO, wasn't harassing the veterans and their families, but looking for extreme right activists in order to prevent them to turn that ceremony into a political rally.

As far as France is concerned, it is not the leftist that are creating troubles for the veterans, it's the neo-nazis.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

it is a shame that the police in Germany are so left wing nowadays.... so Sid, why do you say sining "Ich Hatt einen Kameraden", a mourning song, is not neccesary? And is singing that a political statement then? btw, excellent post Paddy Keating.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Arminius,

In your original post you mentioned a cemetery. I presumed from this that the memorial was in the cemetery.

You will find on earlier threads that I have no objection to private commemorations on private property.

If this was entirely on private land and had no political content contrary to German law then I can see no objection to it.

But my general question remains: Why does displaying respectful memory necessarily require a pilgrimage, the massed presence of others, speeches, songs or bugles?

I would suggest that all these things are not for the benefit of the dead but for the satisfaction of the living.

Cheers,

Sid.

[panzermahn]

Hi Panzermahn,

It would seem pretty futile to hold a court martial now.

The issue is not really whether they were guilty or not. They were captured in German uniform, so they were guilty of treason beyond reasonable doubt.

The only issue is whether Leclerc was guilty of putting them to death illegally. The answer to that seems equally probably yes.

But was an injustice done? Probably not. Death is a recognised punishment for treason.

Were they unlucky? Probably, because few (if any?) other French ex-W-SS men were sentenced to death for treason. Heck, Jean Mabire made a career out of interviewing them!

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

Your logic is irrational. Assuming that the statement death is a recognised punishment for treason, then I must say that the Germans did not commit any wrong by massacaring almost 5,000 Italian officers at the Cephalonia in September 1943.

During the overthrow of Mussolini and when Badoglio was appointed by the Italian King to become the C-in-C of the Royal Italian Army, Badoglio placed all the Italian forces in Greece under the command of the Germans to placate the latter.

When the Acqui division led by General Dandin decided to fight the Germans and when they surrendered to the Germans, almost 5,000 Italian soldiers were shot by the Germans for treason which is technically true since under orders of Marshal Badoglio, the C-in-C of the REI, the Italians were technically under the command of the Germans. Therefore the Germans massacred these Italians as a punishment for treason is technically true under martial law of all armed forces in the world.

My source is Nicholas Farrell's Mussolini: A New Life (2003) page 422-428


regards
panzermahn

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Helmut,

it is a shame that the police in Germany are so left wing nowadays

Have you read my post above?
I recall that in Germany, as well as in France and several other European countries, Nazi or Neo-Nazi parties, literature, expressions, demonstrations, etc... are forbidden by law.
Those laws were approved by majorities in Parliaments that were not "left wing" except if you consider the French Gaullists and the German Christian-Democrats as "left wing".
So, how a policeman who is doing his job, i.e. making sure that the law is respected, can be called "left wing"?

I wish to state, again, that the real enemies of the veterans and of the soldiers we are talking about here are not the "left wing" but the loose extreme right neo-nazi elements (And/or, by the way, Zionist right wing extremists).

As long as the laws are respected, i.e. no denialism and no attemps to "revive" Nazism are allowed, left wing people don't mind that the memories of non-criminals Axis soldiers are honored. Some left wing people I know even think that it's good to remember and disseminate those stories to ensure that no one forgot how, one day, few men managed to bring a whole country to a total disaster. Just to help it not to come back again.