Romanians

Foreign volunteers, collaboration and Axis Allies 1939-1945.

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panzermahn
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Post by panzermahn » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:28 pm

I am not sure whether this is info is correct or not, I read somewhere that small splinter cells of legionnaires based in West Germany returned to Romania in the late 40s (1946-1949) to start the anti-Bolshevik resistance. More extraordinary is that some of these legionnaires were reputed to be parachuted to Romania.

Anyone got more info on this?

Thanks,
Panzermahn

Athanaric
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Post by Athanaric » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:25 am

panzermahn,

There are some documents in romanian language, sponsored by
Institutul National pentru Studiul Totalitarismului, Colectia "Documente":
"Rezistenta anticomunista din Maramures. Gruparea Popsa, 1948-1949", by Camelia Ivan Duica, 2005; "Jurnalul unui partizan: Vasile Motrescu si Rezistenta armata din Bucovina" by Adrian Brisca, 2005; "Rezistenta armata din Banat, vol.1 1945-1949" by Adrian Brisca, 2004; "Rezistenta armata din Dobrogea, 1949-1960", by Marian Cojoc, 2004;"Miscarea Nationala de Rezistenta din Oltenia, vol. III, 1953-1980" by Radu Ciuceanu, 2004; "Inceputurile Miscarii de rezistenta in Romania, vol. I 11-aprilie 1945-31 mai 1946" Radu Ciuceanu, Octavian Roske, Cristian Troncota, 1998;

Peter93929
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Post by Peter93929 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:05 pm

ISTR that there was something about this, In English, in one or other of the Gehlen biographies. I think he ran them.
Peter

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rhaught
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Post by rhaught » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:20 am

panzermahn wrote:I am not sure whether this is info is correct or not, I read somewhere that small splinter cells of legionnaires based in West Germany returned to Romania in the late 40s (1946-1949) to start the anti-Bolshevik resistance. More extraordinary is that some of these legionnaires were reputed to be parachuted to Romania.

Anyone got more info on this?

Thanks,
Panzermahn
From what I am told by some of the people in Romania (including wifes relatives) the anti-bolshevik movement started as soon as the war ended due to the Soviets not leaving and the Communist starting to gain control. Most likely this was going on as soon as the Red Army was in Romania. I've heard stories about Soviet troops after they came and even to this day the German's in WWII are held in high regards for behavior and respect to the Romanian people.

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Post by sid guttridge » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:37 am

Hi rhaught,

Romania was never occupied by German troops, so there was limited scope for conflict. However, when the German Army retreated onto Romanian soil in the spring of 1944 there was some trouble, as the German troops at first continued to treat civilians as they had in the USSR under scorched earth policies. It took complaints from Antonescu for German discipline to be tightened up on Romanian soil.

Cheers,

Sid.

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rhaught
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Post by rhaught » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:46 am

Sid,

I never said they were occupied by the Germans. I know the history and from what I was told the Germans didn't destroy Romania in 1944 since I have been to Moldova and talked to the villagers. The Germans treated them fairly even during the retreat but the Russians are a completely different story.

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Post by Peter93929 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:07 pm

Digressing slightly, the Germans were reputed to have had a flak train protecting the Ploesti oilfields that initially looked like a goods train with covered wagons, but which, when attacked, dropped the vehicle sides exposing the flak, rather like the IIRC 'Q' ships of WWI. Does anyone know of any photos of it?
Peter

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Post by sid guttridge » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:58 am

Hi Rhaught,

I never said you did say that Romania was occupied by the Germans.
However, the fact that it wasn't is probably significant reason why most Romanians have a reasonable opinion of Germans today.

I wouldn't expect the Moldovans to remember a few weeks of poor German behaviour over half a century ago after 50 years of Soviet occupation!

It is a matter of record (see "Third Axis, Fourtth Ally", for example) that Antonescu had to remind the Germans that Basarabia was part of Romania and largely populated by Romanians because when the Wehrmacht first fell back onto its soil in 1944 it initially conducted the same scorched earth policies as in the Ukraine. The Germans modified their behaviour as a result.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by sid guttridge » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:01 am

Hi Peter,

The story seems unlikely as it would serve no useful tactical purpose not already served by ordinary flak trains.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by Peter93929 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:34 am

I presume the idea was the same as the 'Q' ships, to lure them in close to an apparently easy target and then hit them hard, particularly as it would enable the use of more readily available shorter range weapons.
Peter

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:59 am

Hi Peter,

The difference is that the "Q" ship was the target, whereas the train was not. The raids on Ploiesti were aimed at massive fixed oil installations, not trains.

I can see no useful purpose that a "Q" flak train could serve that an ordinary flak train could not.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by dragos03 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:34 am

That train existed indeed, although I don't know any photos of it. It destroyed several US bombers during Operation Tidal Wave, when the bomber formations passed over it at low altitude, in easy reach of its light flak guns. After 23 August 1944, the train started to metodically destroy the oilfields, producing significant damage because of its high firepower, until a Romanian engineer team blew up the railway line in front of it, forcing the German crew to abandon the train.

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Post by sid guttridge » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:40 am

Hi Dragos,

A "Q" train is almost certainly a fantasy.

The Germans had numerous conventionally camouflaged flak trains that could be moved from likely target to likely target. These were sometimes hidden in woods or railway tunnels.

A "Q" ship was the target in its own right and was designed to draw U-boats onto its guns. At Ploiesti it was the fixed oil installations that were the targets and Tidal Wave and all other raids on Ploiesti had fixed routes to them. A "Q" train was not likely to draw attention from bombers with fixed targets.

I would suggest that conventionally camouflaged German flak trains are being confused here with a fictitious "Q" train.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Romanians

Post by Defta » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:18 am

I have a request to all those kind enough to answer it; I am currently working on a study dedicated to the German Luftschutz settled around Ploiesti oilfields between 1942-44. I am facing all kind of hardships to identify the Wehrmacht or SS Waffen units involved in the defense of the respective oilfields which were of major importance to the third Reich.

All I was able to find out so far was that parts of the 54th SS Division led by General Hoffmeyer were involved in the airdefense of the region.

I would be greatly thankful to anyone willing to offer a bit of help.

Quelimane
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Re: Romanians

Post by Quelimane » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:18 am

There was no 54th SS Division.

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