The Italians had an intermediate formation between ordinary infantry divisions and alpini divisions, known as the mountain infantry division.
Can anyone explain the differences between the mountain infantry division and the other two?
Were the 7th Lupi, 11th Brennero and 33rd Acqui Divisions of the mountain infantry variety? My information is that the 33rd Acqui was, but I am not so sure about the other two.
Many thanks,
Sid.
Italian Mountain Infantry Divisions?
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AFAIK these were the Mountain Infantry Divisions of Regio Esercito:
1st Superga
2nd Sforzesca
3rd Ravenna
4th Livorno
26th Assietta
33rd Acqui
36th Forlì
37th Modena
59th Cagliari
The main difference was in the Arty Regiment of the Divisions:
all horse/truck towed = "normal" infantry or celere
both horse/truck towed (1 Gruppo) and packed (2 Gruppi) = Mountain Infantry
all packed = Alpini
the Arty personnell on Mountain Infantry wore the same hat (Cappello Alpino) of the Alpini Divisions.
Best regards
1st Superga
2nd Sforzesca
3rd Ravenna
4th Livorno
26th Assietta
33rd Acqui
36th Forlì
37th Modena
59th Cagliari
The main difference was in the Arty Regiment of the Divisions:
all horse/truck towed = "normal" infantry or celere
both horse/truck towed (1 Gruppo) and packed (2 Gruppi) = Mountain Infantry
all packed = Alpini
the Arty personnell on Mountain Infantry wore the same hat (Cappello Alpino) of the Alpini Divisions.
Best regards
- Lupo Solitario
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the complete list at 1940
1st Superga
2nd Sforzesca
3rd Ravenna
4th Livorno
11th Brennero
19th Venezia
23rd Ferrara
26th Assietta
32nd Marche
33rd Acqui
36th Forlì
37th Modena
38th Puglie
53rd Arezzo
59th Cagliari
many changed role during war
The main difference with standard infantry units was that artillery and services were completely packed by mules. The result was a unit thought to move mainly on rough terrain but AFAIK they had no real mountain warfare training
(a little correction for my friend FB: the three artillery battalions (1 100/17 and 2 75/13) were all packed...In a standard infantry division there were 2 towed battalions (1 100/17 and 1 75/27) and 1 packed (75/13). In a alpine division there were only 2 packed battalions (75/13))
1st Superga
2nd Sforzesca
3rd Ravenna
4th Livorno
11th Brennero
19th Venezia
23rd Ferrara
26th Assietta
32nd Marche
33rd Acqui
36th Forlì
37th Modena
38th Puglie
53rd Arezzo
59th Cagliari
many changed role during war
The main difference with standard infantry units was that artillery and services were completely packed by mules. The result was a unit thought to move mainly on rough terrain but AFAIK they had no real mountain warfare training
(a little correction for my friend FB: the three artillery battalions (1 100/17 and 2 75/13) were all packed...In a standard infantry division there were 2 towed battalions (1 100/17 and 1 75/27) and 1 packed (75/13). In a alpine division there were only 2 packed battalions (75/13))
Thank you very much, Lupo.Lupo Solitario wrote:the complete list at 1940
1st Superga
2nd Sforzesca
3rd Ravenna
4th Livorno
11th Brennero
19th Venezia
23rd Ferrara
26th Assietta
32nd Marche
33rd Acqui
36th Forlì
37th Modena
38th Puglie
53rd Arezzo
59th Cagliari
many changed role during war
The main difference with standard infantry units was that artillery and services were completely packed by mules. The result was a unit thought to move mainly on rough terrain but AFAIK they had no real mountain warfare training
(a little correction for my friend FB: the three artillery battalions (1 100/17 and 2 75/13) were all packed...In a standard infantry division there were 2 towed battalions (1 100/17 and 1 75/27) and 1 packed (75/13). In a alpine division there were only 2 packed battalions (75/13))
I have found several different descriptions for the Arty reg. of a Mountain Infantry Div. The one I gave appeard to have more sense, "mixing" in it both the Alpini Arty (packed) and the "Infantry" Arty (towed). Is the one you gave relative to a specific year? I'm surprised to see packed 75/13 howitzers (the Alpini arty howitzer par excellence) in Infantry Divisions. I thought that in the "normal" infantry divisions the standard gun was the 75/27 (in one of its different models) truck towed or truck transported (i.e.: on the truck) or horse towed.
You learn something new everyday
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Hi FB and Lupo,
Many thanks.
I was particularly interested in 1940, which means that the 11th Brennero was a mountain infantry division at that time.
I imagine that the Italian mountain infantry divisions were probably similar in concept to Greek infantry divisions, which were also widely equipped with pack artillery. Both were designed for difficult upland terrain, but not for high mountain warfare like the Alpini.
Cheers,
Sid.
Many thanks.
I was particularly interested in 1940, which means that the 11th Brennero was a mountain infantry division at that time.
I imagine that the Italian mountain infantry divisions were probably similar in concept to Greek infantry divisions, which were also widely equipped with pack artillery. Both were designed for difficult upland terrain, but not for high mountain warfare like the Alpini.
Cheers,
Sid.
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official TO&E 1940. As you know, after 1941 italian artillery regiments become a chaos.FB wrote:I have found several different descriptions for the Arty reg. of a Mountain Infantry Div. The one I gave appeard to have more sense, "mixing" in it both the Alpini Arty (packed) and the "Infantry" Arty (towed). Is the one you gave relative to a specific year? I'm surprised to see packed 75/13 howitzers (the Alpini arty howitzer par excellence) in Infantry Divisions. I thought that in the "normal" infantry divisions the standard gun was the 75/27 (in one of its different models) truck towed or truck transported (i.e.: on the truck) or horse towed.
Told this the tactical concept about mountain infantry divisions was to have a completely packed division so to move off roads.
It seems anyway that italian army had a strange "love" for mule packs using it every possible time.
I am not learned about Greek Army but I think Sid is right in his hypothesis
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Hi ytterbion,
Also on a point of information, the Italians attacked Greece with forces numerically inferior to those of the Greeks. They were expecting some sort of internal collapse in Athens that did not occur. The Greek counter-attack throughout November 1940 had numbers on its side. It was only in December 1940 that frantic Italian efforts to reinforce their armies in Albania led to numerical parity being achieved.
This said, the Greek counter-offensive, with WWI weaponry, in extremely difficult terrain and in the face of enemy air superiority, was a fine achievement.
Cheers,
Sid.
Also on a point of information, the Italians attacked Greece with forces numerically inferior to those of the Greeks. They were expecting some sort of internal collapse in Athens that did not occur. The Greek counter-attack throughout November 1940 had numbers on its side. It was only in December 1940 that frantic Italian efforts to reinforce their armies in Albania led to numerical parity being achieved.
This said, the Greek counter-offensive, with WWI weaponry, in extremely difficult terrain and in the face of enemy air superiority, was a fine achievement.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Italian Mountain Infantry Divisions?
Vicenza was also a mountain division attached to the Alpini Corps in Russia.They lacked artillery by standard TOE.They also were not trained at the Alpini school as Lupo said they were an entirely different soldier.