May 9, 45: Free French and French Waffen SS

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I wouldn't argue with that. However, in the longer historical term, the Bretons have good reason to resent the centralising and homogenising tendencies of the French state. They have seen their language eroded and weren't even allowed to christen babies with Breton names until the last couple of decades. There is no likelihood of Brittany gaining the degree of autonomy or independence enjoyed by the other Celtic peoples in Wales, Scotland or Ireland. The Bretons, on current projections, are likely to gradually disappear from the stage as a distinctive people much as the Cornish have.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Sid,

A good friend of mine, member of the IRA, asked me to strongly challenge your statement regarding the degree of autonomy that the Irish people "enjoy" from the English...
I tend to believe that the problem is tougher in Dublin than in Brest

Now, concerning the French Britanny, things eased a bit since sometimes. The language is easily accessible, the European Union, through its Region program and policies, facilitates the survival of local cultures.

As we talk about France, allow me to mention that the French Britanny is not the sole region of France where local cultural problems are yet to be solved. We also have to deal with:

The Corsicans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica

The Basqs
http://dametzdesign.com/euzkadi.html

The Occitans
http://partitoccitan.free.fr/indexen.htm

The Alsacians
http://www.fers-elsass.org/

The Catalans (South West France)
http://www.bloc-catala.com/

The Normands
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/unite.normande/

The Savoyards
http://www.ligue.savoie.com/

Plus few others I don't know yet about
If they all get independance, France will shrink to Paris and its near suburbs...
In my opiniopn, nothing to worry too much about.

Now, explain me what do you mean by Cornish? (Sorry, remember that I am a frog, thanks)

[Egorov]

Hi,

In first, you wrote a very good post about Sein Island. I liked it.

I agree with you about french régions, de Gaulle precisely said:

"How can you control a country where there are as many kinds of cheeses of days in the year."

[John Kilmartin]

Hi Egorov,
It had been my understanding that Petain was the legitimate leader of France when the Charlemagne Division was formed. I can't personally see how one could come to another conclussion as the UK had made overtures to his government. Therefore to say that a group of men led by some disgruntled army officers could unilaterally decide that those fighting on the side of Germany were not legitimate combatants and not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions strikes me as an odd concept to say the least.

[Egorov]

Hi John,

The government of the French state was not legal, it was not created by a popular vote... but by the pressure of an occupying enemy.
The U.K. did not have relations with Vichy since it lodged the leader of free French and armed them..

De Gaulle after "Overlord" refused that American applies the policy of the AMGOT and installed its own administrators named by the provisional government of Alger... American thus recognized this government and not Vichy..

When Leclerc made shoot the 12 French SS, this one depended of the French government in place and these SS were traitors for their country since they fighted against allies of free France.
Not to forget that much French SS came from the “french milice” who had fought killed and tortured many french résistants .

Pétain never represented France, he represented collaboration with the Nazis. He made laws anti-semites, internment and deportation of the Jews by his police force, fought French resistance, shoot on the American troops during the operation "Torch" in North Africa....

It was judged and condemned by France in a free country...

[sid guttridge]

Hi Laurent,

If your supposed "IRA friend" really believes that Dublin is more closely controlled by London than Brest is by Paris, then it only serves to illustrate that the IRA live in a fantasy world! However, I work on the assumption that your "IRA friend" is notional rather than real and doesn't really exist. IRA membership is not public knowledge.

The Cornish are Celts from the south-west peninsular of Britain. The Bretons originally colonised Brittany from Cornwall. However, the last monoglot Cornish language speaker died nearly two hundred years ago.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Opa]

Hi Egorov,

Petain was given full powers by the French parliament BEFORE the surrender to Germany. I don't know where you would get the argument that he was not the legal leader of France--even the US and Canada recognized him till 1942.

Things are not quite as easy as in post-war agit-prop. Why should these poor people have been "traitors," and morons fighting for the mass-murderer Stalin "heroes"? The war was over, what Leclerc ordered was murder, pure and simple.
Its like during wars of religion, people get carried away by their passions. But 60 years later, we should do justice to both.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Egorov,

Petain was given full powers by the French parliament BEFORE the surrender to Germany. I don't know where you would get the argument that he was not the legal leader of France--even the US and Canada recognized him till 1942.

Sorry, but the vote in the Parliament took place on July 10th, 15 days after the signature of the "armistice" on June 25th.
So, in one sense, he was the fully legal leader when he surrendered.
Now, the legality and legitimity of this July 10th vote where our politicians surrendered all their power to Petain, is still discussed in France, with pro and cons.
However, it was the official De Gaulle position all along the war: Petain government is illegal, the sole guardian of the French Republic and constitution, it's me, De Gaulle.
But that was more a political position than a legal one.
We could argue on that for years

Things are not quite as easy as in post-war agit-prop. Why should these poor people have been "traitors," and morons fighting for the mass-murderer Stalin "heroes"? The war was over, what Leclerc ordered was murder, pure and simple.
Its like during wars of religion, people get carried away by their passions. But 60 years later, we should do justice to both.

The French Waffen SS have been considered as traitors during trials in France after war: They join the enemy, whatever was the reason. Only jail sentences were given as no war crimes could be proven against them, only fighting the Soviet army, that's all. Most of them were liberated quickly.
Example: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Henri Fenet, Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross April 45, condemned to 40 years and released in.... 1949!

That should have been the case for those 12 that were executed by Leclerc. In that sense, I agree with you.

[MOGUERA]

The United States Constitution defines treason as giving aid and comfort to the enemy in a declared state of war.
That aside, provided that these ones committed no atrocities, they should have gotten two years(minimum penalty under the Espionage Act of 1917)
and that should have been that.

[vicslav]

>Petain was given full powers by the French parliament BEFORE the surrender to Germany. I don't know where you would get the argument that he was not the legal leader of France

Because french national deputies and senators can't delegate the authority they held from french people. It's a general principle of constitutional law in all democratic countries.

[Laurent Daniel]

Please, no! Let's stick to the truth, my frog fellow!
Let's be back a bit to the facts:

Petain was appointed as "President du Conseil" (Prime Minister) by the President Albert Lebrun on June 17th, 1944, replacing Paul Reynaud.

The very same day, he had is famous radio speach where he said "It is with a broken heart that I TELL YOU THAT WE HAVE TO STOP THE FIGHT".

The "Armistice" was signed on June 25th with Germany, 8 days later!

The Parliament surrendered him full power on July 10th, allowing the installation of the "Etat Francais", a dictature.

Petain betrayed the Republic at 2 levels:

1 - His radio speach on 17/6/44, calling for surrender while the negotiation for the Armistice were not even started.
Result:
10th May to 17th June: Germans got 350,000 French POWs
1,100,000 surrendered between the 18th and 25th June due to the order of armistice of Pétain.
Compare the figures. The legend of the French surrendering with no fight, throwing brand new rifles and raising hands is still going on, even here, because of that, simply because of that. I will never forgive Petain.

2 - His establishment of a neo-fascist dictature.
Taking advantage of the coward mentality of the French political class left in Parliament in July 44, he seized power and used it to drag France into collaboration with the Nazis, establishment of anti-Jews laws, allowing French to join the LVF and later the SS and the Milice, etc...
I will never forgive Petain for that as well.
They were bery kind in 1945 to turn his death sentence to life in jail, very kind.

And don't talk about "legality". There were days when the honour of our Country was beyond legality and De Gaulle got the point perfectly

[George Lepre]

Please, no! Let's stick to the truth, my frog fellow!

Do not use the term "frog."

Moderator

[panzermahn]

Early May 1945, somewhere in Southern Germany, 12 French from the 33 Waffen SS Grenadier Division “Charlemagne” surrendered to US troops.
A bit puzzled about what to do with them, the Americans transferred those POW to a unit of the Free French 2nd Armored Division that passed by there.

Being puzzled himself, the officer of this unit reported to his HQ. General Leclerc, the Division commander, came and questioned the French SS:
- Why are you wearing German uniforms?
They committed there a big diplomatic mistake by responding:
- And you, why are you wearing an American uniform?
And that was true. Beside the men, everything in this French armored division was made in the USA, from the soldier’s socks to the Sherman tanks….

Leclerc gave his order: Execute them.
A panicked French Lieutenant commanded the firing squad. On May 9th, 1945, i.e. AFTER the overall German surrender, the 12 French Waffen SS were executed, 4 by 4, the last ones witnessing their comrades death. In front of the firing squad, they all shouted “Vive la France”. This took place near from Bad Reichenhall.

As instructed, the French executors didn’t bury the corpses. American soldiers did that few days later.
Those SS were Paul BRIFFAUT, Robert DOFFAT, Serge KROTOFF, Jean ROBERT, Raymond PAYRAS and some unknown French.

The guys of the French 2nd armored division didn’t recovered from that sad event. During the following years, on a regular basis at the anniversary day, flowers wrapped with the French flag and the 2nd Armored Division insignia could be seen on their tombs at Bad Reichenhall cemetery.

This Forum is about history. Nothing is pure white or pure black in history. Some “good” French massacred some “bad” French, ignoring by such all the standard war laws. They were POW and the war was over. That was a war crime, but it never went to any tribunal.

None of them was white or black, but grey in that story. Who was darker grey? The French Waffen SS or the Free French?
To meditate when we discuss, in this forum, about war crimes. OK, the SS were definitely “darker grey” than the other side. But here is my conclusion: Give a uniform, weapons and authority to a very nice chap and there are chances than the beast that is sleeping deep inside of all of us will re-appear.

There is a French Waffen SS soldier who was spared by the Leclerc. He was the son of a friend to Leclerc

Lieutenant Paul Briffaut was a LVF officer, not Waffen SS

Regards
Panzermahn