Charlemagne Division uniforms, weapons, insignia, etc.

Foreign volunteers, collaboration and Axis Allies 1939-1945.

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Laurent Daniel
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Post by Laurent Daniel » Tue May 09, 2006 1:59 am

Hi, Le Page,
Le Page wrote:Daniel--is Maziere the one closest to the camera in that photo which was taken at Wildfleken, where they're standing shoulder-arms?
Could you post that photo here?
It would help...
(And makes Helmut happy :wink: )
Regards
Daniel Laurent

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Tue May 09, 2006 9:29 pm

Laurent Daniel wrote:Hi, Le Page,
Le Page wrote:Daniel--is Maziere the one closest to the camera in that photo which was taken at Wildfleken, where they're standing shoulder-arms?
Could you post that photo here?
It would help...
(And makes Helmut happy :wink: )
Sure, I'll dig it out--ah you know which one, the one that was in the article about de la Maziere's death, reproduced on les volontaires?

I'll post some others too.

Laurent Daniel
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Post by Laurent Daniel » Tue May 09, 2006 10:26 pm

Le Page wrote: Sure, I'll dig it out--ah you know which one, the one that was in the article about de la Maziere's death, reproduced on les volontaires?
I think I remember but as the site is closed, can't go back there....
Regards
Daniel Laurent

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Tue May 09, 2006 11:07 pm

Laurent Daniel wrote:
Le Page wrote: Sure, I'll dig it out--ah you know which one, the one that was in the article about de la Maziere's death, reproduced on les volontaires?
I think I remember but as the site is closed, can't go back there....
You're supposed to have these things--you're a connoisseur 8)

BTW would "aspirants" wear those epaulettes? I'm rusty about that kind of thing.

Image
Oops pic's a little large. Charlemagne at Wildflecken.

Photo is from "French Volunteers of the Waffen SS" by Richard Landwehr.
Last edited by Le Page on Tue May 09, 2006 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Tue May 09, 2006 11:20 pm

I know this shot was posted earlier but this paticular one shows more:

Image
Charlemagne in Pomerania?

From French Volunteers of the Waffen-SS by Richard LANDWEHR.

I have some pics of Charlemagne and Sturmbrigade members (named); would the Cercle have a problem if I posted any?

Laurent Daniel
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Post by Laurent Daniel » Tue May 09, 2006 11:52 pm

Hi Le Page,
Thanks.
This time, I saved those pix, in case Feldgrau get @{ ...
Right, the first pix look to show de la Maziere.
I will try to check, we are trying to revive the lesvolontaires forum at an other place.
Concerning the second pix, it is a "polemical" one.
I have seen several threads in other forums (And maybe here also if I remember well) about it.
Some says that it is the Fenet Batalion preparing their trip to Berlin. But it seems they had only Panzerfausts in Berlin while those W-SS are carrying Panzerschreks...
It is even not sure that they are from the Charlemagne.
By the way, Le Page, if you want to try in this new mini-forum, most welcome, send me a PM. I am Moderator there, so can easily help you re. Franglish
:wink:
Regards
Daniel Laurent

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Wed May 10, 2006 12:14 am

Laurent Daniel wrote: Some says that it is the Fenet Batalion preparing their trip to Berlin. But it seems they had only Panzerfausts in Berlin while those W-SS are carrying Panzerschreks...
It is even not sure that they are from the Charlemagne.
I forgot--this was discussed on AHF.

I believe there is a good argument for the photo in question as having been taken in Pomerania with Division Charlemagne.

There purportedly exists a 10-15 second film clip of Charlemagne troops unloading from trucks in Pomerania, and French inscriptions are on the back of the trucks. At any rate, I think there's a good chance that this photo is either a "still" from that clip or was taken at the same time. The only thing is, the troops seem mostly to be wearing jackboots.

An important thing is that in a non-referenced report of Army Group Vistula dated 15 February [1945], personnel and weaponry totals of Charlemagne are listed and the Panzerschreck total is 72. Also refenced are two Panzerschreck companies which of course may not have been accurate. Forbes claims that it is known that 10/58 had one Panzerschreck platoon in its Panzerjager company.

As to uniforms, the Division wasn't issued camouflage uniforms until early April, which presumably would have been after this photo was taken.

Somebody pointed out that the troops in this pic are wearing helmets, whereas La Division Charlemagne supposedly weren't issued helmets. I don't know that they weren't issued helmets, just that there was a frequent absence of them. I really wonder how many did wear helmets.
Last edited by Le Page on Wed May 10, 2006 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke » Wed May 10, 2006 12:34 am

him thanks for the pics. :D Aanyway, La Maziere is the one at the most left with the SS runes on the helmet then I presume?

Laurent Daniel
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Post by Laurent Daniel » Wed May 10, 2006 12:45 am

Hi Le Page,
Forbes is right, but both Regiments 57 and 58 had a Panzerschrek Platoon within the Panzerjadger Kompany, both numbered 10.
So we had Panzerschreks at the 10/58 (W-Oscha Gerard) and the 10/58 (W-Ostuf Labuze).
The first organigram of the Charlemagne was built by Jean Mabire. I have one that is based on Mabire, completed/modified by Massimiliano Afiero, an Italian historian and then completed/modified again by the "Cercle". You can find it online
THERE
The "Cercle insists that this organigram was valid when they left for Pomerania but another organigram built before or after can be different while still correct.
Regards
Daniel Laurent

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Wed May 10, 2006 6:37 pm

Image

This is an original BeVo national armshield as worn by personnel of the LVF and some members of the Charlemagne. As you can see, it differs from the example shown as my avatar.

Image

An LVF soldier wearing the FRANCE armshield. Note the serif letters.

PK

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Wed May 10, 2006 6:50 pm

Paddy--what is the source of the B&W photo?

fons
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Post by fons » Wed May 10, 2006 10:32 pm

Laurent Daniel wrote:Hi Le Page,
Thanks.
This time, I saved those pix, in case Feldgrau get @{ ...
Right, the first pix look to show de la Maziere.
I will try to check, we are trying to revive the lesvolontaires forum at an other place.
Concerning the second pix, it is a "polemical" one.
I have seen several threads in other forums (And maybe here also if I remember well) about it.
Some says that it is the Fenet Batalion preparing their trip to Berlin. But it seems they had only Panzerfausts in Berlin while those W-SS are carrying Panzerschreks...
It is even not sure that they are from the Charlemagne.
By the way, Le Page, if you want to try in this new mini-forum, most welcome, send me a PM. I am Moderator there, so can easily help you re. Franglish
:wink:
I have seen this photo also being described as 'a panzerjagdkommando at Pyritz' btw...

fons

Le Page
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Post by Le Page » Wed May 10, 2006 11:24 pm

fons wrote:
I have seen this photo also being described as 'a panzerjagdkommando at Pyritz' btw...

fons
Robert Forbes mentioned the bit about the film clip of Charlemagne unloading from lorries and that French inscriptions can be seen on the back of the lorries (i.e., trucks); in the pic I posted I noticed that something is written on the rear of the one in the foreground.

I'm going to contact him and see if that photo is from the same group. Maybe we can finally solve this.

Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke » Thu May 11, 2006 12:59 am

thanks for the pic, Paddy, he seems to be wearing an M43 tunic? The pockets aren;t curved like the M36, M40, or M42....

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Thu May 11, 2006 1:34 am

Le Page wrote:Paddy--what is the source of the B&W photo?
It's a digitalised image in the collection of a friend of mine who is one of the foremost collectors of foreign volunteer armshields and insignia. I did not credit it for a number of reasons. The image itself is a fairly commonly reproduced KB/PK shot. I imagine that it can be found in several archives. Try the BA or maybe even the ECPA-D. It was probably taken in the summer of 1943, before surviving members of the LVF were absorbed by the new SS Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment. I haven't seen a wartime print of the image with a caption slip so this is just conjecture based on the type of tunic and the absence of a decal from the M35/40 helmet.

HvM: yes, he is wearing an M43 tunic without the box pleats and scalloped pocket flaps. The shoulder straps are constructed from field-grey cloth and the collar lacks the dark green facing. There was no M42 tunic. The M36 was replaced by the M43 and then in 1944 came the M44 blouse-type design.

PK

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