Final defence of Berlin

[AAA]

How small and insignificant does a Waffen-SS unit have to be before it no longer gets some sychophantic, under critical author hanging on the veterans' every word?

Considering the amount of interest in the 99.999% insignificant British Free Corps seen in some www forums .....

[sid guttridge]

Hi AAA,

Good point.

Any advance on a platoon sized force that never saw action as a formed unit?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Le Page]

Yeah, this Sid character's entire post went right over my head. I don't know, it's just a book. Who cares.

PS No actually the word is "troll". Must be the verb not the noun

[sid guttridge]

Hi Le Page,

I take it, then, that you will not be answering my questions?

Cheers,

Troll, er, Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

However, I am familiar with the subject and it does not strike me that the fate of 300 French W-SS men in Berlin is main stream military history.

Except if the reader is French or of French ancestry
However, the book is about the 7,000 French Waffen SS, not only the last days in Berlin.
Talking about one of the most fascinating military side of the 3rd Reich: The number of foreign volunteers, most coming from countries vanquished by the Germans, willing to fight for the Nazis in the Eastern Front. That is still a delicate subject in Europe, generating polemics.

Sorry, Sid, if this is of no interest in the USA

[AAA]

However, I am familiar with the subject and it does not strike me that the fate of 300 French W-SS men in Berlin is main stream military history.

Except if the reader is French or of French ancestry
However, the book is about the 7,000 French Waffen SS, not only the last days in Berlin.
Talking about one of the most fascinating military side of the 3rd Reich: The number of foreign volunteers, most coming from countries vanquished by the Germans, willing to fight for the Nazis in the Eastern Front. That is still a delicate subject in Europe, generating polemics.

Sorry, Sid, if this is of no interest in the USA

1. Honestly, can the French SS even claim to be mainstream French military history? I believe NOT.
2. Agreed, the SS foreign soldiers are rather fascinating.
3. ??? Sid is a brit, he sometimes gets flamed for being anti-US (but he can describe that better himself.)

[Laurent Daniel]

Ooops, sorry Sid.
British, well noted.

What means "mainstream"? Are we supposed here to only consider the military action of the largest armies?

Many tiny units fought beside the German troops, from Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Croatia, France, Spain, Norway, etc... Small number at the Staline scale (Denmark? How many Divisions?) but, well, they were there.

Why? How? etc... you can't blame the people who are interested by that. Moreover, their existence is often taken by the nostalgics as "the proof" the Hitler was building the new Europe, blabla, etc.

Nonsense, but the critic of this nonsense deserves to be documented.

With the same thinking, I believe that the thesis of the negationists deserve to be fought, not by law and intellectual repression as we sadly do in France, but by historical proof and arguments. But this is out of topic at Felgrau.com

[Le Page]

[quote="The formation of the French Division of the Waffen-SS called 'Charlemagne', including brief histories of its main component parts, namely the LVF and Milice française"
http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?xProd=71523

I am not so fluent in english, but calling the LVF and the Milice "components" of the Charlemagne looks very strange to me. OK, many SS volunteers "came from" LVF, Milice, NSKK, etc... but, after the training, they were SS, forget the origin.

Is it that sort of things that makes you doubtful about R. Forbes?
Thanks in advance[/quote]

I guess that was Helion's way of phrasing it in the advertisment. The author actually did a good job of describing a lot of the factionalism inside Charlemagne when it was being formed; there evidently were a few cliques which led to some friction. Also some background was given on the Franc-Garde of the Milice, sympathetic though it may be.

[Laurent Daniel]

Also some background was given on the Franc-Garde of the Milice, sympathetic though it may be.

Sympathetic? The Franc Garde?
I opened my dictionary to make sure before replying!

While many former French Waffen SS, LVF, NSKK, etc... went through the liberation with no or limited hassles (Few years in jail at most), the Milice in general and the Franc Garde in particular generated in France a huge hatred campaign with many summary executions and many death sentences through legal courts.

It even started during the war. No LVF or Waffen SS members were ever killed by the Resistance while being back to France for a break. Many Milicians were killed by Resistance commandos.

Till date, it is a delicate topic. Veterans of the LVF and the SS could stand and speak more or less freely, some even joining our National Front extreme right party openly. Meanwhile if anyone stands and says "I was a Franc Garde, I was only doing my duty" or something of that sort, everyone will jump on him from the extreme left to the extreme right....

If the author of the book we talk about found the Franc Garde as being sympathetic, his judgment and reporting can be challenged. Maybe I haven't got the point, kindly clarify.

[Le Page]

Also some background was given on the Franc-Garde of the Milice, sympathetic though it may be.

Sympathetic? The Franc Garde?
I opened my dictionary to make sure before replying!

While many former French Waffen SS, LVF, NSKK, etc... went through the liberation with no or limited hassles (Few years in jail at most), the Milice in general and the Franc Garde in particular generated in France a huge hatred campaign with many summary executions and many death sentences through legal courts.

It even started during the war. No LVF or Waffen SS members were ever killed by the Resistance while being back to France for a break. Many Milicians were killed by Resistance commandos.

Till date, it is a delicate topic. Veterans of the LVF and the SS could stand and speak more or less freely, some even joining our National Front extreme right party openly. Meanwhile if anyone stands and says "I was a Franc Garde, I was only doing my duty" or something of that sort, everyone will jump on him from the extreme left to the extreme right....

If the author of the book we talk about found the Franc Garde as being sympathetic, his judgment and reporting can be challenged. Maybe I haven't got the point, kindly clarify.

"Sympathetic" is the word I chose in regards the author's attitude toward the subject; although he readily mentions the terror against terror employed by the Miliciens, and their reputation, he wrote

"The Milice Francaise as a whole, which numbered some 29,000 adherents at its peak, should not be judged, nor condemned, by the actions of a handful of a more violent and unsavoury disposition. More often then not, the Milice is protrayed as recruiting into its ranks the dregs of the French underworld and those who foresaw opportunities for booty and loot, but many of its recruits joined out of political commitment, considering themselves superpatriots who would save France from Communism and ruin. They were predominantly from the Right and the far Right but few were genuine National Socialists. A great number of Miliciens were, in fact, anti-German French Nationalists."

Also:

"Accusations of wholesale torture, murder, extortion, rape and robbery are repeatedly levelled at the Milice. While there were isolated instances, this cannot be denied, the criminal outrages of the maquis and the resistance certainly surpassed those of the Milice in scale and brutality! Furthermore, unlike the maquis, Miliciens were held accontable for their actions and were severely punished for breaches of discipline."

He said it, not me! Anyway he goes on to describe acts of revenge by the Franc-Gardes as being in response to "terrorist" outrages. He also mentioned that when Joseph Lecussan, the regional head of the Milice in Lyon, and others committed a reprisal killing, Darnand dismissed Lecussan from the Milice. The author described the killing as a ''brutal crime", and used similar wording elsewhere, so he in no way condones the actual killings. He also noted the rape of a female prisoner and of the particular Milicien's immediate expulsion.

[Laurent Daniel]

From your quotes of this book, it is clear to me that the author is among those people who are trying to convince us that beside a handful of criminals, the whole pro-German forces were composed of heroes fighting for the just cause of anti-bolchevism.

Sorry, they won't convince me....

Now, concerning the "criminal outrages" of the resistance and the maquis, I would like to get some details.

From end 1940 to June 44, the resistance and the maquis fought a (important) intelligency war and a (modest) guerilla war against the Germans and their allies whomsoever they were. German soldiers as well as French Milicians and collaborators were killed. That's call war.

From June 44, the guerilla war became more important, helping as much as possible the advance of the allied forces, but the 25th hour "resistants" took advantage of the semi-anarchy, that lasted till De Gaulle cleared up the mess in 45, to commit several crimes that I would even not call war crimes but simply crimes, gangster crimes.

Be very careful not to mix the 2, i.e. the genuine resistance and the mess during the liberation, as it is slighly insultant for the resistance.

The accusation repeatedly levelled at the Milice are wrong. The same levelled at the Franc Garde are right. The Milice was a political un-armed corps. The Franc Garde was armed and conducting violent operations. Concerning the "punishment for breaches of disciplin", kindly try to find if the author talk about what happened to the Franc Gardes who murdered Helene and Victor Bash, Jean Zay and Georges Mandel, thanks.

[Le Page]

Daniel

The author (Forbes) did indeed mention the murder of Georges Mandel--he said the killer was a Milicien named Mansuy. The author used the term "murder". He did not specify what happened to Mansuy.

Forbes also claimed that Joseph Lecussan (mentioned above) was dismissed for taking part in the murder of Victor Basch and his wife.

I guess we're straying off the original subject but--do you know of any English-language works which examine the Franc-Garde?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Le Page,

I thought I would give "Pour L'Europe" by Robert Forbes a go, so I have come along to the British Library to order it up.

But it isn't in the BL Catalogue.

So I thought I'd see if it was in the US Library of Congress Catalogue. Nope.

So I then tried to find it in the catalogue of the Bibliotheque National in France. But again nothing.

If this book is so authoritative, why does it apparently not appear in the catalogues of the three libraries that are meant by law to hold a copy of every book ever published in the two languages?

(I should state here that I may not be fully master of the French catalogue, so it might be worth you rechecking it.)

Cheers,

A mystified Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Le Page,

Sorry, but I don't know of any book in English related to the Franc Garde.
Me Frog, me anglish no good, me read francais book only

You may try the following:
Go to http://www.lesvolontaires.net
Then send a message to Lato, the webmaster. The site is in French but Lato is fluent in English. Well, almost, like me
He is the best specialist I know about books related to French volunteers.
Robert Forbes is not in his online library but he will search and find something. Please tell him that you got his contact from me and that I also wish to be informed (Daniel, [email protected] , he knows)

Now, congrat, with this Mr. Robert Forbes, you mystified both Sid an me and that's a kind of achievement!

Hi Sid,
I tried the Bibliotheque Nationale of Froggyland, no way, unknown.
It is mentioned only in commercial websites, usually from editors or book shops.

[panzermahn]

Coming back to the foreign volunteers fighting for the defense of Berlin, to my knowledge

a) 350+ Frenchmen from the former Charlemagne Division (commanded by Brigadefuehrer Gustav Krukenberg and led by Hstuf Fenet)

b) 80+ Latvians from the 15th SS Fusilier Company (Latvian) commanded by Ostuf Neilandis

c) 100-200 Spaniards of the Einsatzgruppe Ezquerra. A small group of Spanish SS men commanded by Ustuf R.B. Moro breakout from Berlin as when the ring was about be close by the Russians

d) A Hungarian company (a monograph was published by a Hungarian researcher on this company. Available from the Hungarian Military Archives and only in Hungarian Language)

e) A small detachment of the Croatian NDH Poglavnik Bodyguard and Domobrantsvo which the Croatian military attache was known to be the only survivor

f) Danes from the 24th PzGr Regiment "DanmarK" of the Nordland Division commanded by Stubaf Per Sorensen

g) Swedes from the 3rd company (Swedenzug) of the Auflakrung Abteilung of the Nordland Division under Hstuf Hans-Gosta Pehrsson

h) An Italian SS officer

i) Norwegians from the PK regiment and from the Nordland divisions

j) A small group of Estonians from the 20th SS Division (as mentioned in Krukenberg's memoir

Regards
Panzermahn