why pepole join invaders side?

[Laurent Daniel]

that the resistance could be useful, rather than decisive.

OK, we won't put a bounty on your head.
VERY useful.
Obviously not decisive.
Except from a political pont of view.
AMGOT and the like, you know what I mean, don't you?

[Helmut Von Moltke]

more detailed information on why Europeans joined the Waffen-SS. Because Bolshevism was seen as a threat to Europe, considering the Spanish civil war and the left movements. This was drilled into the heads of the European SS volunteer generation while they were in school, just after WWI when the Western Allies were very hostile to the Bolsheviks. Disclaimer: I am not saying through the following quotes that I am related to them politically, but that they offer an intresting insight.And here is more, from Richard Landwehr's article "The European volunteer movement of WWII"

It didn't take a clairvoyant to see that Germany was virtually finished, but still the European volunteers rushed to join the battle.

The establishment historians have never been able to understand this phenomenon, perhaps because it involved an abstract concept alien to most of them: conscience. There was a great desire for many people, who had until this point sat out the war, to finally be "true to themselves"; to make the ultimate sacrifice out of loyalty to their beliefs, their homelands and their fellow countrymen who had already done so much. This was Europe's moment of crisis and many young men made the decision to leap into the crucible. It was a manifestation of spiritual honesty.

And Leon Degrelle had another good reason why, the foreign volunteers might have political power if Germany won.

True elites are formed at the front ... the young leaders are born there ... the emblem of the SS shows Europe where political and social truth is to be found ... We are preparing the political cadres of the post-war world in the Great Seminary of the Front Line.

And it could be added on that the volunteers were attracted to the Waffen-SS through the comradeship, smart uniforms, smart discpline, etc. The book "The Patriotic traitors" describes a certain "pull" to the Waffen-SS:

The Runic Flag evoked a heroic pagan spirit, a swaggering defiant attitude to life equally contemptuous of bourgeois timidity and of communist anarchy

Also some volunteers joined for political reasons and out of sympathy with National Socialism, if you see the intresting informative thread by DXTR on some political motivations of Danish volunteers. hope that this was informative.

Kevin

[fons]

"This was drilled into the heads of the European SS volunteer generation while they were in school..."

Thats a load of bollocks.
European? what do you mean exactly? (only German?)
You keep thinking of this whole European volunteer movement as a unified block do you?
As much as there were volunteers there were reasons for joining.
There was no "drilling into heads" in schools in Holland for sure.
It may have happened on a individual basis in specific schools for target groups such as Catholics but to suggest it was a overal practice...no.
You project the german schooling system on the whole of Europe, which at that time was full of independent states.

fons

[phylo_roadking]

Kevin, you have to remember something - what on earth did Bolshevism matter to the average Dutchman, Belgian, Dane, or Norwegian? Perhaps to the more than occasional politically aware Frenchman it meant a lot yes, but Anti-Bolshevism just did NOT have the appeal to the rest of Europe that it did in Germany and other Eastward-facing states - who had 1/ come to a VERY strange peace treaty with them at Brest -Litovsk 2/ and THEN lived through years of Bolshevisk risings and revolutions, then more years of Communist-Fascist streetfighting.

The Nazis preached this to their own citizens, THEN to the already-converted in the Greater Reich, but somehow I don't think you will EVER find ANY evidence of a single card-carrying ComIntern member who was persuaded by the rhetoric to burn their Party card and join the SS. It really doesn't work like that.

The numbers actually show that in places like Holland and Norway, the ranks of the SS were filled in the majority by members of the DOMESTIC Nazi Parties in each country. And people became or supported Fascism and Nazism NOT just as an opposite to Communism, but for a whole platform of reasons.

phylo

[Helmut Von Moltke]

hi Phylo and others, intresting points about the nature of Bolshevism as seen by the rest of Europe. However it should not be forgotten that some of them might have seen the threat, through the Spanish civil war, and the leftists movements, for example in France. Plus, right after World War I the Western Allies were really afraid of Bolshevism, and in 1918 even fought it briefly. Plus you have to add on right before the European volunteer movement into the Waffen-SS there was the Soviet invasion of Finland, which the Western world mostly strongly condemned, and even sent volunteers there, but they did not have enough time to fight. And phylo, some German propaganda leaflets claim that after Bolshevik atrocities were discovered during Barbarossa, some communist prisoners in Germany decided to convert, redeem themselves and join the Wehrmacht. But being propaganda, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Kevin

[phylo_roadking]

Kevin, two things, in reverse order......

Communist prisoners....hey, for two full years it DID look to anyone, PARTICULARLY in the skewed news environment of a prison camp, that the Germans were going to win in the East. Whats easier to do that grab a scrap of paper that they almost certainly couldnt read and walk up to the recruiting officer to suddenly be on the winning side; and did these "volunteers" end up in combat units, or shovelling sh*t like the Cossacks in France? Would YOU trust the man next to you if you'd known he had already changed sides ONCE...

Finland...."sent" volunteers? Kevin, that not even good english, its a contradiction in turns. A trickle of foreign volunteers reached Finalnd, not sent by anyone; And it seems to me that the vast majority of the aid sent to the Finns by the West consisted of SELLING them 2nd-rate military equipment like Brewster Buffalos etc. and penny packets of two or three tanks here and there, wonderful for getting spare parts. With friends like that who needs enemies??? The amazing thing is how the Finns used them! The RAF and RAAF couldn't ever do much with the Buffalo....

[sniper1shot]

You know, I have read this whole thread and there are some very good points and reasons for why a member of a defeated country would join the victor.......
I did read one small quote from a book awhile back about a French Artillery Sergeant (book has been forgotten)

The Sgt said, He didn't care about which Army he fought for, so long as he had a Battery under his command.

A career soldier that knew nothing else, other than being a soldier I would assume. Anyone think of that? No politics, no religious beliefs, just being a soldier.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

hi sniper1shot, thanks for sharing. I have read that one too in a Time Life book on WWII, it seems the Frenchman mentioned here was in the LVF in the Wehrmacht.

And Phylo, undoubtedbly you are right about why the Soviet POWs joined the Wehrmacht. I remembe reading in "Berlin the Downfall", that when a Wehrmacht ROA recruiter went to a POW camp to he was asked by a POW "How many ciggarettes do you get in the ROA?" or something like that.
Best Wishes.

Kevin

[philippe_jehl]

Quite and interesting thread. Thought I would also pipe in.

My grand-father did not have to return to German military service during WW2 but chose to do so anyway. He was an Alsatian but lived in the Lorraine city of Nancy and had live there for several years after WW1.
He was drafted by the French at the opening of WW2 but had a Neighbor who also was Alsatian put him on medical leave. Once the French surrendered he found the nearest German unit and retuned to service in the German army. He had served in the German army as a officer in the heavy calvalry in WW1 since Alsace was part of Germany at that time. Yet in 1940 he was living in France and was in his 40's. He could have chosen to not volunteer to return to service since he already serveed and was in his 40's and with a family. So why in the world would he choose to endanger himself and possibly get killed by return to service for Germany.

Well I don't know but do know a few things that could have driven him to do so.

For one he very much hated the French. He once told me of how his cousin was executed by the French for refusing to serve in the French Army (the French army had gained control over the area the cusine lived and were drafting any man of miltary age into their army).

2. The French mounted a harsh campaign in Alsace after it became French to make Alsace French and erase anything German about it.

3. The french forced property ownners in Alsace a back tax to 1870 when Alsace was last in French control. It could be payed in Gold , silver, French Franks or in germany currency at 1/3 of the current exchange rate. If they could not pay then the property would be seized. My family lost a lot of land because of this.

4. The french did not permit Alsatians from holding public offices or any meaning position or any control of infrastructures in the public service. These were given to French famillies brought into Alsace.

5. He came from a career German military family who had originally been from Alsace, left Alsace during the French revolution and returned in 1870 to reclaim their former property.

I can understand much of what he felt like since the French mounted another Harsh campaign after WW2 to remove anything remotely German from Alsace. Even being forbidden to speak our Alsatian dialect by our non-Alsatian teachers.

He certainly did not like Hitler or what he stood for, refered to him as the Lunatic Austrian corporal.

He was not anti-semetic and a "righteous gentile" for his acts to help a train convoy of jews bound for the east.
He was not politcal or a anto this or anti that

He did not consider himself German or French but Alsatian and once told me he choses to be either German or French whatever is the most beneficial at the time. He also carried both his German and French identity papers during the war. He did not receive French citizenship until the late 1950's, yet he could have filled out his "re-integration" paper work after WW1 but chose not to, but forced to in order to receive retirement benefits.

So would he be considered a collaborator, German patriot or someone trying to survive and do the best he can to ensure the survival of himself and his family?

I know the family certainly benefited with better rations and also that he was able to secure the release of my grand-mother from the Gestapo.
His French neighbors still remained friends with the family years after the war. I don't think they considered him a collaborator. Knowing my grand-father they probably also benefited from being friends with my Grand-father as he would have done what he could for them as well.

I think like someone else said in the thread it really is on an individual basis .

[DXTR]

What a long and at times derailed threat. I found myself mentioned here. And although I am n o expert on the subject I will add a little bit more as to why volunteers joined the invading army.

As you all know a great deal of danes signed up for service in the german armed forces. Some (between 50-75 percent) did so out of sympathy with the National Socialist cause. Others did so out of adventuring spirit. Others were ardent anti-communists. Some found it neccesarry to continue the fighting they had done on the finnish side in the winterwar. But the most fascinating group are those who found them dishonoured as soldiers when Denmark surrendered to Germany. In a matter of few hours with very little fighting, the danish government capitulated. Some were struck by relief, the fighting was over and they survived. Others felt ashame that they had not proven themselves as soldiers. Elements from that group found themselves eventually joining the invading army. It sounds bizarre and in some cases it was a mixture of sympathy for the anti-communist and/or NS cause. But some did join in order to have their chance of fighting. Not an uncommon phenomenon when one reads about soldiers in all sorts of wars who get disappointed when they miss their chance of fighting as the war ended too soon.

Regards

[sid guttridge]

Hi DXTR,

"A great deal of Danes signed up for service in the German armed forces"? About five a day on average, if we are talking about those joining units destined for the front. (Others did paramilitary domestic guard duties inside Denmark, but that hardly indicates any great desire to fight for Gernany.)

This only looks like a large number because Denmark's professional army was so small before the war - about 6,000 men. Even the annual intake of conscripts brought in only about 8,000.

Your point about professional soldiers wanting to test themseves is well made. One wonders what propoprtion of the country's professional soldiers enlisted in German units? One also wonders why they didn't rather offer themselves to the Finns, as a good number had during the Winter War? The Finns had an Estonian regiment during the Continuation War. Why, one wonders, not a Danish one?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Tom Houlihan]

Interesting point, Sid. Had they offered their services to Finland, they might well have been better received when they came home. Although I've been strongly advised that Finland is not a Scandinavian country, the popular sentiment probably would have been stronger for her rather than Germany.

[DXTR]

Hi DXTR,

"A great deal of Danes signed up for service in the German armed forces"? About five a day on average, if we are talking about those joining units destined for the front. (Others did paramilitary domestic guard duties inside Denmark, but that hardly indicates any great desire to fight for Gernany.)

This only looks like a large number because Denmark's professional army was so small before the war - about 6,000 men. Even the annual intake of conscripts brought in only about 8,000.

Your point about professional soldiers wanting to test themseves is well made. One wonders what propoprtion of the country's professional soldiers enlisted in German units? One also wonders why they didn't rather offer themselves to the Finns, as a good number had during the Winter War? The Finns had an Estonian regiment during the Continuation War. Why, one wonders, not a Danish one?

Cheers,

Sid.

Well Sid perhaps it is my poor command of the english language that is making its mark here. Of course "a great deal of danes" is not to imply a great majority. The understanding of the semantic meaning of the expression "a great deal" is perhaps lost to me. But I will maintain that the number who signed up was rather large. App. 12.000 signed up for service with the W-SS (where only 7000 was accepted) on top of that we will have to put those who served in other branches of the Wehrmacht as well as the auxiliary units in Denmark such as the HIPO corps. I will maintain that those who signed up for the SS and the Hipo or other domestic auxiliary units were willing to fight for germany.

Does this produce the image of a nation eager to fight for germany? of course not. Instead the volunteers are a hot pot of national socialists, anti bolsheviks, adventurist types, ethnic germans, finland volunteers, dishonuored soldiers and so on.

The number of danish soldiers who made the direct transistion from professional danish soldier to the wehrmacht only makes up a small fraction. And of those where an even smaller number of soldiers who had the dishonour as the primary motive.

ne also wonders why they didn't rather offer themselves to the Finns, as a good number had during the Winter War? The Finns had an Estonian regiment during the Continuation War. Why, one wonders, not a Danish one?

First of all Estonia is a lot more closer to Finland than Denmark. And I bet that after the russian revolution some estonians had already settled in Finland - unlike danes.

After 1940 it was not possible withput special permission to go to Sweden. So the land connection would be blocked. The danish government, who was hard pressed by the germans to recruit for the Freikorps could not start a recruitment campaign for finland. (the danish government was presented with the request of troops for the german war machine only a week after the invasion of the USSR). So if one would want to fight for Finland one would either have to smuggle oneself to Sweden across the straits, and then go across the Swedish-Finn border - a rather dangerous task, or one would have to go to germany and get aboard a ship bound for either sweden or Finland, which was not really sanctioned by the germans. And since the German command decided that the danish volunteers would not go to finland, there was really no other alternative than to fight indirectly for Finland, which only a small fraction did. The great irony of the matter is, as I have pointed out before was that some of the former Finland volunteers would actually join the resistance movement.

regards

[Brigadefuhrer_Grim]

There where alot of Norwegians fighting with the germans, most in the SS [Nordland, Wiking etc.].

Since I'm Norwegian I can say a little about why an Norwegian would join the Germans after getting invaded by them:

1. The Norwegians was without doubt seen as an pure arian race and this made an "natural" bond between Germans and Norwegians. This was outlined in seroius propaganda spred out by Germans in Norway [like the well known poster of an old norwegian viking and a german soldier standing side by side together] Actually, alot of germans where posetive about being stationed in Norway, as Norwegians were welcome to the third reich as an pure arian Germanic race. This also went the other way, and I would guess that it was easy for many to think that this was the greater good for Norway, and thereby a reason to join the German army.

2. There was without doubt alot of Norwegians joining the Germans to fight the communists [as in so many other countrys.]. As a country with direct borders to the Soviet Union, the Norwegians had a good reason to fear Stalins communism. And thereby a reason to join the German Army.

3. When the Germans attacked Norway the 9th of April 1940, and were marching up "Carl Johan" in Oslo the same day, they gave the Norwegians the impression of the German Army being a strong undefeatable army. Many Norwegians wanted to be a part of this army, wanting to fight along side men that were proud and unbeatable. Thereby a reason to join the German Army.

I have reed some norwegian books on the WWII, and also talked with many Norwegians that lived during the war. And this was usually the reasons I'w seen the most of.

[sid guttridge]

Hi BFG,

Again I would question "a lot".

Norwegians joined the Waffen-SS at an average of four a day during the war. This hardly constitutes "a lot". Nobody was likely to get killed in the crush at the recruiting offices!

Even amongst those defined by Nazi racial ideology as fellow Germanics, recruitment was limited. Not one single "Germanic" nationality provided enough recruits to keep a whole division permanently in the field. The Danes and Norwegians provided about enough men together to keep a single regiment permanently in the field.

Remember, German divisions commonly suffered over twice their establishment strength in casualties. 12,000 Danes and Norwegians was about enough to keep a 3,000-man unit permanently up to reasonable strength in the field. On occasion combined divisions like the Wiking were fielded. This tends to emphasise the weakness of recruitment even in "Germanic" states. Later in the war other "Germanic" divisions were fielded but they were usually understrength and sometimes had their numbers made up with Volksdeutsche. They lacked any reliable replacement system and soon declined.

Cheers,

Sid.