Kursk / Prokhorovka Questions

[Reb]

Ok - I remember the Soviets did use captured tanks but I was wondering where they got so many before Kursk. At Kursk I always think of lend lease tanks as US Grant / Lee models so this is useful info.

thanks
reb

[Shingo]

Hello Michael
Hello Reb

Thanks!
Although I do not know in detail about the type of tank, Mk-IV tank is British Churchill tank.

Lend lease: For example .
6 July 1942
5th Tank Army/ 11th Tank Corps/ 59th Tank Brigade
44 Mk-IIs (Matilda)

7 January 1943
North Cauccasus Front/ Reserve/ 140th Tank Brigade
18 M3s (Stuart)
11 Mk-IIIs (Valentine)

Best regards
Shingo

[Martin Schenkel]

Has anyone compared the information from the KOSAVE II study, and if so, how does it match up? I'm trying to determine how accurate the numbers in the study are.

[Wolfkin]

Hello Shingo!

Hey thanks for those numbers! The more numbers the better! I do notice that some of these numbers are slightly different than the ones Panzeralex gave and also slightly different than the ones from the Russian Battlefield site. But that is ok because I like to compare and contrast numbers anyways and the more numbers the better chance of being able to find a reasonable area for a good figure. It seems sometimes that each source can sometimes give a slightly different number and I do find that interesting.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Wolfkin]

Hello Martin!

Yes, good question! I wonder about that as well! I believe there might be a few fellows on here that have the numbers from Dupuy's Kosave Study and the Kursk Database (or are they the same?). I actually had some of the numbers for some of the German Panzer Divisions that a kind fellow shared with me. I printed them out and do y'all think I can find them? I should have saved them to disk!

Well, I will look for them, they should be with my notes somewhere (Heeheehee...all several hundred pages of notes! ) if I find them before someone else posts them then I will post them. And if someone else posts them thank you in advance and I will make sure I put them somewhere where I can find them this time!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Martin Schenkel]

For those of you who are interested, the KOSAVE 2 study is available here:

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/av ... 5/data.htm

[Shingo]

Hi Wolfkin and all,

Thank you for the message.

Additional data
Source: Voenno Istoricheskii Arkhiv (Military History Archives No.39 2003/03) P92

(A) V puti i remonte (Under transit or repair?) Sorry, the translation may be wrong.
29th Tank Corps
14 T-34s, 5 T-70s
18th Tank Corps
26 T-34s, 7 T-70s, 1 Tk-IV
2nd Guards Tank Corps
28 T-34s, 17 T-70s
2nd Tank Corps
23 T-34s, 13 T-70s, 6 Tk-IVs
5th Guards Mechanized Corps
46 T-34s, 13 T-70s, 3 SU-122s, 3 SU-76s

(B) Bezvozvratnye (Destroyed?) Sorry, the translation may be wrong.
29th Tank Corps
60 T-34s, 31 T-70s, 8 SU-122s, 3 SU-76s
18th Tank Corps
32 T-34s, 12 T-70s, 11 Tk-IVs
2nd Guards Tank Corps
38 T-34s, 24 T-70s
2nd Tank Corps
10 T-34s, 5 T-70s, 1 Tk-IVs
5th Guards Mechanized Corps
59 T-34s, 14 T-70s

Cheers,
Shingo

[Shingo]

Date: 16 July 1943

Shingo

[Rich]

Yes, good question! I wonder about that as well! I believe there might be a few fellows on here that have the numbers from Dupuy's Kosave Study and the Kursk Database (or are they the same?). n

Just to clear this up it is not "Dupuy's Kosave Study." KOSAVE II (Kursk Operation Simulation and Validation Exercise - Phase II) was produced by the US Army Concepts Analysis Agency (now the Center for Army Analysis) from the Kursk Data Base (KDB) compiled by the Dupuy Institute. To fit the data into the simulation parameters they used, CAA did amalgamate some for the data, so it is slightly different from that in the original data base. Also, we have continued to revise and add to the data base, so the one we maintain is now slightly different from the "original."

I haven't compared the data above to the data in the KDB (it's in DBIV, so not the easiest data base to work with), but most variations - at least on the German side - are caused by differences in the original documents. Some include specific tank types such as Pz-III(k), Pz-III(l) and Pz-III(75) for instance, while others do not. Some include Befehl and Beobachtungswagen and some do not. Some higher level reports (Gen.Inspk.d.Pz.Trup.) differ markedly from divisional reports, supposedly made on the same day. And so on.

Hope that answers some questions.

[Wolfkin]

Hello Rich!

Ok, I see now. The Dupuy Institute made the Kursk Database and the Kosave Study was done by the USACAA using the Kursk Database. Thanks for clearing that up!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Kelvin]

RE command pz

Was there a specific methodology for employing the command tanks?
Being unarmed obviously made them very vulnerable. I've always assumed they had an escort pltn or somesuch.

I do not know about all Bef.Pz. employed in operation Zitadelle, but there were:
7 Pz.D: 7 Bef.Pz. III with 5 cm Kwk L/60
And I think, that there were most (or all) Bef.Pz. III in SS Pz.Gren.D LSSAH, DR, T and in Pz.Gren.D. Grossdeutchland were armed with 5 cm Kwk L/42 and L/60.


Best regards,
Panzeralex.

Earlier model Pz III bef were unarmed but dummy gun but later they were armed with real 5 cm gun with less ammo 56-65 rounds instead of 92 rounds

[mellenthin]

There is an interesting article in Viertelsjahhefte für Zeitgeschichte 2009/3 by Roman Töppel
"Kursk – Mythen und Wirklichkeit einer Schlacht'. A pdf of the article can be bought on the website of the VfZ.