Combat at Sevsk -26.8.43-31.8.1943

[Igorn]

Gents,

I am looking for the information on the strength of German 4. PD and 8. PD as of August 26th 1943 on the eve of the German assault near Sevsk and their strength as of September 1st 1943. Soviet side was represented in these combats by the 7th Guards Mechanized Corps of the 2nd Tank Army.

Thanks a lot in advance!

Igor

[Martin Block]

Can't help with specific data for 26.8.1943 but the following overview might be of some help:

A) 4. Pz.Div.

20.8.1943
9 Pz III 7,5 cm L/24 (6 operational)
57 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/43 & L/48 (43 operational)
5 Pz.Bef. III (4 operational)
9 Pz.Beob. III (2 operational)
s/p guns status as of 1.8.1943:
21 Marder (10 operational)
12 Wespe (? operational)
6 Hummel (? operational)
12 Grille (? operational)

1.9.1943
9 Pz III 7,5 cm L/24 (3 operational)
51 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/43 & L/48 (20 operational)
5 Pz.Bef. III (4 operational)
9 Pz.Beob. III (2 operational)
26 Marder (11 operational)
11 Wespe (? operational)
4 Hummel (? operational)
12 Grille (? operational)

AFV replacements 1.8. - 31.8.1943: 6 Marder
Losses in personnel 1.8. - 31.8.1943: 241 KIA, 952 WIA, 70 MIA, 17 sick, 14 other


B) 8. Pz.Div.

20.8.1943
7 Pz. II (1 operational)
10 Pz. III 5 cm L/42 (2 operational)
20 Pz. III 5 cm L/60 (6 operational)
2 Pz III 7,5 cm L/24 (0 operational)
3 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/24 (1 operational)
34 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/43 & L/48 (21 operational)
6 Pz.Bef. III (4 operational)
s/p guns status as of 1.8.1943:
15 Marder (12 operational)
No Wespe,Hummel, Grille available.

1.9.1943
7 Pz. II (1 operational)
10 Pz. III 5 cm L/42 (4 operational)
19 Pz. III 5 cm L/60 (1 operational)
2 Pz III 7,5 cm L/24 (0 operational)
3 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/24 (0 operational)
33 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/43 & L/48 (10 operational)
6 Pz.Bef. III (3 operational)
12 Marder (6 operational)
No Wespe,Hummel, Grille available.

AFV replacements 1.8. - 31.8.1943: None
Losses in personnel 1.8. - 31.8.1943: 219 KIA, 926 WIA, 168 MIA, 241 sick, 60 other


Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin,

Thanks for the excellent information. Can you pls. let me know the source of data so that one can refer to it (e.g. NARA or BA-MA etc). As far as the Russian side, on the eve of the combat at Sevsk (26.08.1943) Soviet 2nd Tank Army had in its two corps' (3rd Tank Corps and 7th Mechanized Corps) - 200 tanks and 12 SP guns - all operational.

T-34 - 142 tanks
T-70 - 58 tanks
SU-122 - 12 SP guns

As of 31.08.1943 - 2nd Tank Army had 96 tanks operational + unknown number of tanks in repair

T-34 - 54
T-70 - 32
SU-122 - 10

Best Regards,

Igor

[Igorn]

Martin,

In his book Fire Brigades with the reference to the archival sources Kamen Nevenkin stated that 4. P.D. as of 1.09.1943 had 20 operational (+5 in repair) Pz IV while your number of Pz IV was 51 (20 operational). The same with 8. P.D. As of 1.09.43 Kamen provided the number of Pz III as 5 operational (16 in repair) - your number -5 operational +24 in repair.
For Pz IV - Kamen's number was 20 operational + 18 tanks in repair. Your number was 10 operational + 26 in repair.

Can you pls. check?

Thanks,

[Martin Block]

Igor,

my data was compiled from a variety of documents found in the Files of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. (RH 10) in the BA-MA Freiburg as well as some rolls from the T78 series from NARA Washington.

I think I tried to explain this already earlier to you in another thread. I do not know how the data is presented in the book since I do not have it but if it is as you quote the problem seem to be that the 'Zustandsberichte' are not interpreted correctly by the author. If a standard German 'Zustandsbericht' of any unit on the front page shows for instance 20 operational AFVs plus 5 AFVs in short term repair it does NOT mean there were just 25 AFVs in that unit because any AFVs possibly in long term repair were NOT included in these figures. To get to the total figure of AFVs available in a unit you need additional information from other documents which do include figures for those AFVs in long term repair.
In addition to that I used 10 day reports prepared for the quartermaster general which are at times somewhat more detailed in these matters than the 'Zustandsberichte'.
That's why I (almost) never trust any books but wherever possible use the original documents. Any typos and misinterpretations then are entirely my own faults

Nevertheless here is some more information from the divisional histories of 4. and 8. Pz.Div. which do stand up quite well a cross-check with my available documents:

From the divisional history of 8. Pz.Div. by Werner Haupt:
The Pz. IV was lost on 29.8.1943 west of Knjaginino (German spelling). It belonged to the company commander of the 1./Pz.Rgt. 10, Hauptmann Schmidt, who was severely wounded in the action.
Between Aug 27th and 31st, 1943 the tanks of the I./Pz.Rgt. 10 under the command of Hauptmann Primke claimed the destruction of 61 enemy tanks, 12 a/t guns and 5 anti-aircraft guns. I found no information about more possible claims of Pz.Jg.Abt. 43 or other subunits of the division.

From the divisional history of the 4. Pz.Div. by Joachim Neumann. According to this book the division had available on 25.8.1943:
9 Pz III 7,5 cm L/24 (6 operational)
56 Pz IV 7,5 cm L/43 & L/48 (47 operational)
5 Pz.Bef. III armed with 5 cm L/60 gun (4 operational)
? Pz.Beob. III (no figures given)
23 Marder (18 operational)
11 Wespe (10 operational)
4 Hummel (3 operational)
12 Grille (10 operational)

attached to the division were:
Stu.Gesch.Abt. 244 with 24 StuG III (19 operational) and 5 StuH 42 (4 operational) [status 21.8.1943]
Stu.Gesch.Abt. 909 with 19 StuG III (15 operational) [status 19.8.1943]
s.Pz.Abt. 505 with 25 Tiger I (11 operational) [status 18.8.1943]
Kampfgruppe Kahl (elem. s.Pz.Jg.Rgt. 656) with with 12 Ferdinand (10 operational) and 14 Sturmpz. IV (7 operational) [status 24.8.1943]

Claims of the 4. Pz.Div.
27.6.1943: No claims, division not yet fully engaged in combat
28.8.1943: 23 enemy tanks destroyed
29.8.1943: 20 enemy tanks destroyed
30.8.1943: 19 enemy tanks and 8 a/t guns destroyed
31.8.1943 No claims, division takes up new positions

Checking through a few more files and books in my collection showed that the attached units apparently suffered
Stu.Gesch.Brig. 244 no losses in AFV
Stu.Gesch.Brig. 909 no losses in AFV
s.Pz.Abt. 505 no losses in AFV
KGr. Kahl no losses in AFV
between 26.8. and 31.8.1943. I have no information about their possible claims about destroyed enemy AFVs.

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin,

Thanks a lot for additional data and your clarifications. However the problem with tanks in long-tern repair is that quite often they never re-appeared on the battlefield and were either lost during the retreat or were never repaired and written off or cannibalized for parts later. There are numerous examples of that (e.g. write-off of 58 Panthers in July-August 1943 of 51/52 Abt. or loss of 18 Panthers in repair which belonged to 23 PR at Potash station on March 7 1944 and loss of 21 Tigers in repair of 503 sPzAbt on the same day at th same Potash station). Similar story is with Ferdinands in long-tern repair which were written-off in August 1943 or with German tanks in repair lost in Hube pocket in April 1944.

Best Regards,

Igor