Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Domen123
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Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:33 am

Hi Domen,

As far as my sources go, none of the above officers were KIA. That means that i am not sure as I have only one source: the 30th div history by Breithaupt. ;)

I've got a table though listing casualties in Poland of this division. As you can see losses were rather heavy, mainly because this division took the brunt of the initial polish offensive near the Bzura.
Well, it seems that this tabel is not very reliable if it comes to the figures from the Polish campaign.

First of all - it does not list the number of MIA of the division - who were in fact also KIA.

Second of all - Rolf Elble in his book titled "Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" - page 137 - states that these numbers (800 KIA and 750 WIA + also huge amount of MIA and over 3000 POWs), are only from the first day of the battle. I will later come back to R. Elble once again.

I have some sources which go on casualties of separate German divisions and brigades in the Polish Campaign - however this data is not complete (I don't have info on casualties of all divisions from every army - I have any data only on some part of them).

I have also an excellent Polish work on the Polish Campaign 1939 - "Wojna Obronna Polski 1939" ("Defensive War of Poland 1939") - which used the data from the German internal daily casualty reports of each army to create its casualty list.

Basing on this source, "Wojna Obronna" - pages 850 / 851 - lists the casualties of each army in September (and only in September - not in October) in its tabel - but it gives the number of MIA in 8. Army as unknown = not reported.

It seems that casualty reporting system in 8. Armyy completely collapsed, when the army was ran over by the Polish forces during the battle of Bzura - which was often happening during the later stages of the war (for example in Normandy).

But I found some data - data from http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss - which is said by its author, to list the casualties which were reported up to 24th of September.

Fortunately it gives the number of MIA in 8. Army - which "Wojna Obronna" does not give.

When I used the number of MIA casualties of 8. Army - as well as sick from all armies - from the data from http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss - I received the following number of casualties for each army:

4. Army (for shure without casualties of the XIX Corps) - 1329 killed (KIA + MIA):

989 KIA
340 MIA
2258 WIA
383 sick

Casualties of units which were fighting in the Coastal Region (all of them or at least some of them) - are not included above.

3. Army (most probably it is without casualties of XIX Corps) - 2605 killed:

1985 KIA
620 MIA
4768 WIA
691 sick

8. Army - 6282 killed:

1892 KIA
4390 MIA
5840 WIA
983 sick

It is possible that casualties of some divisions which were subordinated to 8. Army during later stages of the campaign, are also included here.

10. Army - 2507 killed:

1636 KIA
871 MIA
13096 WIA
3088 sick

Low number of KIA and MIA - if comparing with the number of WIA - is strange in 10. Army. Maybe those who died of wounds were not reported as KIA and are still included here as WIA? The number of KIA + MIA itself also seems to be too low (I come to such a conclusion basing on data which is reffering to casualties of some of divisions from this army).

14. Army - 3442 killed:

2105 KIA
1337 MIA
7767 WIA
6159 sick

It is very probable that casualties of some divisions / other units of this army are not included here (especcialy those documents of which - including almost all casualty accounts - were destroyed during the war and did not survive).

Total numbers from armies listed above (only Heer casualties):

KIA + MIA (killed) = 16165
WIA = 33729
Sick = 11304

To the number above we must add casualties of:

1. XIX Corps of Guderian:

Battle for the Corridor 1. - 4. September:

Around 150 KIA + around 700 WIA (or maybe WIA and MIA ?) + unknown (?) number of MIA (?)

Further combats:

Around 650 KIA + 1586 MIA and WIA (including several hundred MIA)

2. Casualties of units which were fighting in the Coastal region.

I remind that the Polish casualties in the coastal region are usually given as:

107 KIA and MIA officers
2143 KIA and MIA soldiers and NCOs

86 WIA officers
2144 WIA soldiers and NCOs

3. Casualties of units which were not parts of any army (so - for example - Army Groups' reserves).

It should be considered, that - while comparing the datas above with the datas which are listing numbers from each of divisions - it should be noticed that KIA and MIA are in fact the same - and the proportion of KIA to MIA only depends on when the report has been written (how long after the end of the campaign).

So if we want to summ up casualty datas of divisions from the army with the casualty data of the army itself, we should compare number of KIA + MIA with the number of KIA + MIA - because if we compare only KIA with KIA and MIA with MIA - we will probably always receive contradictory - to high in one source, to low in another one - numbers.

Considering it - and also this data on the casualties of 8. Army:
8. Army - 6282 killed:

1892 KIA
4390 MIA
5840 WIA
983 sick
It seems that these casualties:
24. ID - 472 KIA, 98 MIA (ww2 day by day says, that these are only casualties from the battle of Bzura and only until 12th of September 1939)
30. ID - 795 KIA, 617 MIA (same as above)
- I./26. infantry regiment from 30. ID between 13th and 20th of September - 39 KIA, 87 MIA, 58 WIA
17. ID - 291 KIA, 122 MIA (as above - ww2 day by day claims, that this is only from the battle of Bzura up to 12.09.1939)
- Aufklarungs Abteilung of 17. ID - 40 KIA, 57 WIA, number of MIA is not given
10. ID - 352 KIA, 76 MIA
Are in fact only those which were reported during the first phase of the battle of Bzura up to 12th of September - as the German daily reports from ww2 day by day state -, and - in case of 30. Infanterie-Division - only from the first day of the battle of Bzura, as R. Elble states in his book:

"Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" by R. Elble - page 137:

"Yet on the first day of the battle at the Bzura, 30. Infanterie-Division lost 800 KIA, over 100 MIA, 750 WIA and 3,000 captured."


Another German author - Bethell - states that the division lost 617 MIA during the first day of the battle.

So it should be:

8. Army during the whole campaign - 6282 KIA + MIA
8. Army between 9th and 12th of September (but 30. Infanterie-Division only from during first day) - more than 3000 KIA + MIA

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:20 am

Domen123 wrote:
Somewhere in you're above rant you mention something about statistics of the germans. Well, my experience is, that they were a lot better than that of most armies in wwII.
Well - small quotation which - I hope so - can open your eyes for some new facts:
Niklas Zetterling and Anders Franksson discuss the Bagration casualties in their JSMS article "analyzing WWII E.Front battles", as an example of how the German reporting system coped [or rather - didn't cope - Domen] with defeats that made regular, periodical reporting incomplete. The ten-day reports of the armies have some gaping holes in them.
That is why statistics from 8th Army and - especcialy - 30. Infanterie-Division - may be incomplete (as well when it comes to timeframe of those figures, and when it comes to numbers / amounts of casualties themselves).

By the way - what primary source does the history of 30. Infanterie-Division provide for the casualty table which you provided above?
you're own personal struggle against the unreliability of german casualty figures or whatever your point is.
My point is to make an exact breakdown of the German casualties - and then, when I finish this - to compare it with the different versions of overall casualty figures. But the primary point is just to make a casualty breakdown.

In some cases different German casualty figures are just incomplete, rather not unreliable.

More over - some of the German papers on casualties of their units (for example - 8. Infanterie-Division, 5. Panzer-Division) does not exist (the majority of them were destroyed yet during the WW2 - so I suppose that these casualty figures are not included in any of overall casualty accounts - I would also like to check if I am right in this case).

I only managed to find some - but very incomplete - casualty figures of 5. Panzer-Division in its history. These are - however - only casualties of some units and mainly during the first days of the war.
==========================================================================

Let's now compare the overall numbers given above with the sources which give numbers which reffer to the casualties of separate divisions:

Let's start with the 4. Army:
4. Army (for shure without casualties of the XIX Corps) - 1329 killed (KIA + MIA):

989 KIA
340 MIA
2258 WIA
383 sick
From the data above we have got:

KIA + MIA + WIA = 3587 (including 1329 KIA + MIA)

And I have got the following data:

50. ID - 192 KIA, 69 MIA, 397 WIA
Brigade "Netze" - 197 KIA, 48 MIA, 309 WIA
3. ID - casualties between 11. and 18. September - 104 KIA, 17 MIA, 211 WIA
32. ID - on 16.09 its 96. IR lost 150 men while fighting in Warsaw (Praga district)

So from this incomplete data we have got:

1694 KIA + MIA + WIA

207. ID - it was involved in heavy combats in the Coastal Region (that is why I'm not sure if its casualties are included in the casualty tabel of 4. Army from "Wojna Obronna").

23. ID
218. ID

The last two divisions - 23. ID and 218. ID - as far as I know did not see any fierce combat during the Polish Campaign - but maybe I'm wrong.

There are also casualties of other - non-divisional - units of this army.

Army Group "North" reserves (I don't know if they were parts of 4. Army and if their casualties were reported among casualties of 4. Army in "Wojna Obronna"):

I have got only numbers from 208. ID:

208. ID - 176 KIA, 102 MIA, 359 WIA

I don't have any data on casualties of the remaining two divisions:

73. ID
206. ID

As well as other units (not divisions).

OK - now let's go to the 14. Army - according to "Wojna Obronna" - pages 850 / 851:
14. Army - 3442 killed:

2105 KIA
1337 MIA
7767 WIA
6159 sick

It is very probable that casualties of some divisions / other units of this army are not included here (especcialy those documents of which - including almost all casualty accounts - were destroyed during the war and did not survive).
I have got the following info on casualties of separate divisions of this army:

1. As far as I know 8. Infantry Division was most probably the division which suffered the highest men casualties of all divisions of 14. Army.

2. I found the following numbers:

28. Infanterie-Division - 410 KIA, 169 MIA, 863 WIA

This is according to:

"Geschichte der Hirschberger Jäger" by Bernhard Kranz, page 107

44. Infanterie-Division - "[...] Die Division stößt bis zum 19.9. bis in die Gegend von Lemberg vor, wo vorallem das IR 131 bei Jasniska blutige Verluste erleidet. Insgesamt verliert die Division im Polenfeldzug 121 Gefallene, 270 Verwundete und 44 Vermißte. [...]"

This is according to this site:

http://land.heim.at/podersdorf/220992/fotoid44polen.htm

45. Infanterie-Division:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=141271
I'm guessing the numbers on Feldgrau come from the divisional history wich states losses were (p.101)

158 dead, 360 wounded, and around 700 sick, mainly foot injuries caused by the marching.
According to ww2 day by day:
During the battle of Oleszyce the division lost 124 dead (including 7 officers) and hundreds of wounded.
The number of MIA is not given by the divisional history.

According to Władysław Steblik's book - "Army Cracow 1939" (he is basing on some German sources - probably the same German sources as ww2 day by day) - the division lost 124 dead (7 officers) and around 300 WIA during the battle of Oleszyce.

Polish casualties in the battle of Oleszyce (only part of them was inflicted by 45. Infanterie-Division) were - according to Steblik - 100 KIA (including 65 - among them the general, commander of 21. ID - in the are Dzików Stary), around 300 WIA and around 2700 captured (including 2000 captured by 45. Infanterie-Division and 700 by other units).

OKH Reserves (operating in the southern theatre of war):

I have got the following info:

1. Gebirgs-Division - 405 KIA, 79 MIA, 918 WIA, 608 sick (I don't if its casualties were finally included or not to the casualties of 14. Army in "Wojna Obronna").

===============================================
Die 4. Pz. Division 1938 - 1943: 4. PD mit unterstellten truppenteilen 1 - 20.9.39:
kia 506, mia 151, wounded 1110. (SS-Leibst. 81 - 30 - 299)
Yes - this is in agreement with the data I have got (I have got the exact breakdown of these casualties between separate units of the division).

But it should be stressed that these are casualties of these "unterstellten truppenteilen" (among them SS "LAH") only during the period, when they were "unterstellten" (attached) to the 4. PD - not during the whole campaign.

SS "LAH" suffered much higher casualties during the whole campaign - according to the numbers I have got it was:

200 KIA, 33 MIA, 591 WIA

It should also be stressed, that according to this breakdown, men casualties of Panzer-Regiment 35. were lower, than according to its commander - Oberstleutnant Eberbach.

But Eberbach is giving men casualties for the whole campaign, not up to 20th of September (however - I'm not shure if this regiment even suffered any casualties after 20th of September... so...).

Not to be groundless:

According to this casualty breakdown, Panzer-Regiment 35. lost:

- 133 soldiers (tank crewmen), including 43 KIA, 9 MIA and 81 WIA - during period 01. - 20. September

And according Eberbach, his regiment lost:

- 64 killed, 85 wounded (he does not give the number of MIA)

It is 21 (or at least 12 - if including MIA from the "official" breakdown) KIA more than it was given by the "official" casualty breakdown.

==============================

By the way:

Does anyone have got any data on the casualties of 7. Infanterie-Division?

Or any other division from 14. Army - except those listed above :D ?

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:31 am

Of course the title of this thread should be: "Breakdown of the German casualties in Poland 1939" :!: :shock: - I would be glad and grateful if somebody correct this, because - unfortunately - I can't.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Michate » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:51 am

First of all - it does not list the number of MIA of the division - who were in fact also KIA.

Second of all - Rolf Elble in his book titled "Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" - page 137 - states that these numbers (800 KIA and 750 WIA + also huge amount of MIA and over 3000 POWs), are only from the first day of the battle. I will later come back to R. Elble once again.
and
Are in fact only those which were reported during the first phase of the battle of Bzura up to 12th of September - as the German daily reports from ww2 day by day state -, and - in case of 30. Infanterie-Division - only from the first day of the battle of Bzura, as R. Elble states in his book:

"Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" by R. Elble - page 137:

"Yet on the first day of the battle at the Bzura, 30. Infanterie-Division lost 800 KIA, over 100 MIA, 750 WIA and 3,000 captured."
Which version of Elble's book are you using?

I am asking because my version of his book does not give the quoted figures, not on page 137 nor on any other page of his book.

At the end of his book (pages 199/200) Elble does briefly discuss casualties of the 30 ID, as well as its neighbouiring divisions (10. ID and 24 ID) and provides these figures:

30 ID:
KIA: officers: 29, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 766 (sum is 795)
WIA: officers: 44, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 750 (sum is 794)

10 ID:
KIA: officers: 7, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 66 (sum is 73)
WIA: officers: 12, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 199 (sum is 211)


24 ID:
KIA: officers: 12, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 123 (sum is 135)
WIA: officers: 15, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 123 (sum is 138).

Moreover, referring to these losses, he explicitly says these losses refer to total losses since the beginning of the campaig, as other figures are not available.

On the next page he simply states, that, due to the nature of the fighting, a realtively high number of MIA would have to be added to these loss figures, but most of these cases were again available for their units after a short period of captivity. He does nowhere specify any number of "over 100 MIA and 3000 captured".

However he does provide figures of Polish soldiers captured by the German 8. Army, which on 20 September were:

captured by XIII AK: 16,500
captured by X AK: 33,000
captured by III AK: 42,800

captured altogether by 8 army: 92,300.

My source is:

Rolf Elble: "Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" (=Einzelschriften zur militärischen Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkrieges 15), Freiburg/Br., Rombach, 1975, pages 199 and 200.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:43 am

10 ID:
KIA: officers: 7, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 66 (sum is 73)
WIA: officers: 12, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 199 (sum is 211)

24 ID:
KIA: officers: 12, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 123 (sum is 135)
WIA: officers: 15, NCO and ordinary soldiers: 123 (sum is 138).
Better you tell me which version of his book are you using, because according to my version casualties of these two divisions for the whole campaign were:

24. ID - 472 KIA, 98 MIA, 1017 WIA
10. ID - 352 KIA, 76 MIA, 956 WIA

The same figures are also provided by:

"Die Geschichte der 24. Infanterie-Division", and:
"Die Geschichte der 10. Infanterie-Division"

The same figure from 24. Infanterie-Division is also given on ww2 day by day by Christoph Avender - in his daily reports section (among reports from 12th of September 1939) - however, he states that these are only casualties suffered by this division during the battle of Bzura and only until 12th of September 1939.

It clearly shows, that figures which you provided are only from the first day of the battle at the Bzura, not from the whole campaign.
He does nowhere specify any number of "over 100 MIA
Exactly 117 MIA.
However he does provide figures of Polish soldiers captured by the German 8. Army, which on 20 September were:

captured by XIII AK: 16,500
captured by X AK: 33,000
captured by III AK: 42,800

captured altogether by 8 army: 92,300.
Not "were captured", but rather "surrendered" - at least the vast majority of them.

These are figures from the late evening of 20th of September (from the report which was summing up that day). The majority of them surrendered during the last moments preceding the end of 20th of September - including the whole of that day also. I have figures from 17th, 18th and 19th of September (including also "morning", "afternoon", etc.) - we can compare.

He also provides figure for the 10. Army - also as it was at the end of 20th of September. According to him it was 87,000 - of course it is not only from the battle of Bzura, but from the whole campaign since the beginning of it.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:19 pm

On the next page he simply states, that, due to the nature of the fighting, a realtively high number of MIA would have to be added to these loss figures, but most of these cases were again available for their units after a short period of captivity.
The funniest thing is that he writes just total rubbish and nonsense in this case.

MIA were not the same as POWs in this case. It was something totally different.

Why? - because when he writes about casualties suffered during the whole campaign, he uses casualty reports which were prepared after the end of the campaign. He even mentions about this:

"[...]Deutscherseits vermerkte Zahlen umfassen jeweils die Gesamtverluste ab Feldzugsbeginn.[...]"

Numbers of MIA from these initial after-campaign reports did not include any POWs - it included only dead.

It is clear when we look how the initial amount of KIA and MIA was gradually changing in the next German overall casualty reports - since 1939 untill 1944:

5502 (221 officers) KIA - (includes only numbers until 24.09.1939)
6278 (52 officers) MIA - (includes only numbers until 24.09.1939)

8082 (364 officers) KIA - (I have no any idea what is the origin of these numbers)
5029 (69 officers) MIA - (I have no any idea what is the origin of these numbers)

10572 KIA - (number given to Hitler by his men on 30.09.1939, which he repeated during his speech in Reichstag)
3409 MIA - (number given to Hitler by his men on 30.09.1939, which he repeated during his speech in Reichstag)

16343 KIA - (official number announced by the Germans in 1944)
320 MIA - (official number announced by the Germans in 1944)

Other overall statistics (KIA only - and only Heer forces):

Sanitary Inspection data - 10244 (593 officers) KIA

KTB der Truppe data (it was basing only on info given in combat journals of regiments of Heer) - 14188 (759 officers) KIA

WVW / WED data - 15450 (819 officers) KIA

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Michate » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:46 pm

Better you tell me which version of his book are you using, ...
I am using 1. Auflage, 1975, Rombach+Co Verlag, ISBN 3-7930-0174-1.

A quick look into the German university interlibrary loan database did not result in more than one edition.

Thus I am asking again, which version of the book do you have, where Elble writes the quoted statement?
Numbers of MIA from these initial after-campaign reports did not include any POWs - it included only dead.
Probably, as PoWs were all liberated again after the campaign had ended, or sometimes even during the further course of the campaign.

But upon rereading the passage I think Elble's statement refers to loss figures in general, not the specific ones he quotes further down on the page, as they are indeed implausibly low.

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Re: Breakdown of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:55 am

But upon rereading the passage I think Elble's statement refers to loss figures in general, not the specific ones he quotes further down on the page, as they are indeed implausibly low.
Figures you provided cannot refer to loss figures in general, because general casualties of these divisions were much higher. They can only refer to casualties suffered during the first day of the battle.

Just check it - for example - in "Die Geschichte der 24. Infanterie-Division" and "Die Geschichte der 10. Infanterie-Division".

By the way - my purpose is to create something like this:

http://radikal.ru/F/s39.radikal.ru/i083 ... 3.jpg.html

For the Polish Campaign - but with divisional, not army, breakdown.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Michate » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:20 am

Well, my question, on which version of Elble's book you base your statements:
Second of all - Rolf Elble in his book titled "Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" - page 137 - states that these numbers (800 KIA and 750 WIA + also huge amount of MIA and over 3000 POWs), are only from the first day of the battle. I will later come back to R. Elble once again.
and
Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" by R. Elble - page 137:

"Yet on the first day of the battle at the Bzura, 30. Infanterie-Division lost 800 KIA, over 100 MIA, 750 WIA and 3,000 captured."
is still open.

It is now the third time I am asking this.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:19 am

Here, my friend, here (both the statement and the original source of it are underlined with red colour):

Image

Divisions of 8. Army were involved in some of the heaviest battles of that campaign yet since the very first day of the campaign - fighting with Army "Łódź" in the battle of the Border, including the battle of Borowskie Mountains. Later they took a heavy beating between 9th and 12th of September during the battle at the Bzura - 30. Infantry Division was crushed during those combats and lost its organizational cohesion, and its commander - general von Briesen - was heavily wounded. This division did not take part in further combats (except some parts of one regiment). But other divisions of this army took part in further combats after 12th / 13th of September with the majority of their units, and they were also very heavy - costing all of these divisions a lot of men.

If Rolf Elble gives such a funny figures for casualties of those division during the whole campaign, he is just an author who is not worth of reading him :roll: .

As I actually said - all other sources give much higher numbers ("Die Geschichte..." of those divisions - even 10-times higher for each of them - only for 30. ID number from "Die Geschichte..." is the same - because most probably it is quoted from Elble -, casualty datas of 8. Army which I quoted in this thread - from "Wojna Obronna" book and from "Panzerworld.net" - also give much higher numbers for the whole 8. Army - while analizing and comparing both of them, we receive a number of at least 1892 KIA, 3472 MIA - so 5364 dead - and 5840 WIA + 983 sick).

It only shows us how "reliable" some of German authors are, if one of them gives number 10-times lower than the other one :roll: :? - and the first one is even more funny, while he does not give number of MIA because he thinks that it is "not nescessary / not important" - as you stated above. :roll:

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:54 am

If Elble gives such a funny, low numbers (more over - allegedly for the whole campaign, not only for the battle at the Bzura) for casualties of these few divisions (which were involved in heavy combats yet since the very first day of the campaign and took probably the heaviest beating and suffered probably the heaviest men losses during the battle at the Bzura since 9th of September), then he probably thinks, that the whole Wehrmacht lost around 200 KIA and 200 WIA - or something like that - during the battle at the Bzura, - which was one of the biggest and most bloody battles of the whole World War II -, while the Poles lost 15,000 KIA and 50,000 WIA - as he claims :roll: .

"Banzai" with sabres and maces - and casualty rate 162,5 : 1 :?: - is this how he describes that battle :?:
He does nowhere specify any number of "over 100 MIA and 3000 captured".
In German daily reports there is also a statement that until 12th of September 8. Armee lost 3500 POWs, 50 heavy M.G., 11 armoured vehicles and some number of small arms captured by the Poles:

http://web.archive.org/web/200801100925 ... byday.com/

And below there are casualties of some of German divisions in period 9th - 12th of September, during the first stage of the battle at the Bzura.

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:25 am

In German daily reports there is also a statement that until 12th of September 8. Armee lost 3500 POWs, 50 heavy M.G., 11 armoured vehicles and some number of small arms captured by the Poles:
And here an original Polish order of general Kutrzeba - commander of Army "Poznan" - from 11th of September 1939, which states that according to first, initial reports from frontline units, only during the previous day - so on 10th of September - around 1000 German POWs were captured - as well as many machine guns, several artillery guns, some AT guns, some tanks (from I. battalion of 23. Panzer-Regiment), and some planes:

Image

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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Michate » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:27 am

IOW, either you or the source you have used have falsified Elble's statement.

As to the rest, what you think that Elble thinks or thinks not, or whatever, I am simply not interested.

andrus
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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by andrus » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:24 am

Michate wrote:IOW, either you or the source you have used have falsified Elble's statement.
This is not first time when given person has lied. Here he speaks about war diary: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1264860

I bet he has seen war diary as much as his own ears.

Domen123
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Re: Breakout of the German casualties in Poland 1939

Post by Domen123 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:01 am

IOW, either you or the source you have used have falsified Elble's statement.
Go to school and learn Polish or use google translate (underlined text):

Image

Either this book or you falsified Elble's statement. But I think it is you, not this book, unless you give proofs for your statements.
As to the rest, what you think that Elble thinks or thinks not
Well, if he writes such thinks and does not give sources, he thinks not (doesn't think).
This is not first time when given person has lied. Here he speaks about war diary: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1264860

I bet he has seen war diary as much as his own ears.
Isn't what you have just said inconsistent with regulations of this forum, which say what is allowed and what is illegal here???
I bet he has seen war diary as much as his own ears.
There is such thing called "mirror" - it helps in seeing your own ears.

There are also such things like "quotation" and "footnote".

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