German Army 1st september 1939

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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ericv
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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:42 am

Here is Division Eberhardt , according to Bellin's book the names changed from Landespolizeiregiment 1 and 2 to 243 and 244 Infanterieregiment on 1-9- 1939. I have come across other names as well however. Danziger IR 1 and 2 for example.. I hope someone can shed some more light on the correct names.


Kdr : Generalmajor Friedrich-Georg Eberhardt
Ia : Hauptmann Fett
Ib: Major der Polizei Treuke
Ic: Hauptmann i.G. d. Res Burandt
IIa : Oberleutnant d. Res. Leinveber
IIb : Hauptmann d. Res. Wolcke
III : Kriegsgerichtsrat Dr. Gieseke
IVa : Rechtsanwalt Hellwig
IVb : Oberstabsarzt Dr. Karenke
IVc : Reg. Veterinärrat Dr. Braunschweig
Stabszug (?) : Hauptmann d. Res. Schlicht

243. Infanterieregiment (bis 31-8 Landespolizei-Regiment 1)
Kdr : Oberst Günther Krappe
I. :
II. :
III. :

244. Infanterieregiment (bis 31-8 Landespolizei-Regiment 2, )
Kdr : Oberst Karl-Albrecht von Groddeck
Adj. : Hauptmann Oeljeschläger
I. :
II. :
III. :

Artillerieabteilung
Kdr : Major von Schön-Angerer

Pionierkompanie
Chef : Hauptmann d. Res Stahlberg

Nachrichtenkompanie
Chef : Hauptmann d. Res Schwenkhagen

Versorgunseinheiten
Chef : Hauptmann d. Res. Schlichting

according to Lexikon der Werhmacht following units were also part of the division :

Aufklärungs-Kompanie Gruppe Eberhardt

Grenzwacht-BAtaillon Hacker
Kdr : Hacker?

Arbeitsdienst Gruppe Eberhardt

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:09 am

Hi Domen,

As far as my sources go, none of the above officers were KIA. That means that i am not sure as I have only one source: the 30th div history by Breithaupt. ;)

I've got a table though listing casualties in Poland of this division. As you can see losses were rather heavy, mainly because this division took the brunt of the initial polish offensive near the Bzura.
Well, it seems that this tabel is not very reliable if it comes to the figures from the Polish campaign.

First of all - it does not list the number of MIA of the division - who were in fact also KIA.

Second of all - Rolf Elble in his book titled "Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" - page 137 - states that these numbers (800 KIA and 750 WIA + also huge amount of MIA and over 3000 POWs), are only from the first day of the battle. I will later come back to R. Elble once again.

I have some sources which go on casualties of separate German divisions and brigades in the Polish Campaign - however this data is not complete (I don't have info on casualties of all divisions from every army - I have any data only on some part of them).

I have also an excellent Polish work on the Polish Campaign 1939 - "Wojna Obronna Polski 1939" ("Defensive War of Poland 1939") - which used the data from the German internal daily casualty reports of each army to create its casualty list.

Basing on this source, "Wojna Obronna" - pages 850 / 851 - lists the casualties of each army in September (and only in September - not in October) in its tabel - but it gives the number of MIA in 8. Army as unknown = not reported.

It seems that casualty reporting system in 8. Armyy completely collapsed, when the army was ran over by the Polish forces during the battle of Bzura - which was often happening during the later stages of the war (for example in Normandy).

But I found some data - data from http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss - which is said by its author, to list the casualties which were reported up to 24th of September.

Fortunately it gives the number of MIA in 8. Army - which "Wojna Obronna" does not give.

When I used the number of MIA casualties of 8. Army - as well as sick from all armies - from the data from http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss - I received the following number of casualties for each army:

4. Army (for shure without casualties of the XIX Corps) - 1329 killed (KIA + MIA):

989 KIA
340 MIA
2258 WIA
383 sick

Casualties of units which were fighting in the Coastal Region (all of them or at least some of them) - are not included above.

3. Army (most probably it is without casualties of XIX Corps) - 2605 killed:

1985 KIA
620 MIA
4768 WIA
691 sick

8. Army - 6282 killed:

1892 KIA
4390 MIA
5840 WIA
983 sick

It is possible that casualties of some divisions which were subordinated to 8. Army during later stages of the campaign, are also included here.

10. Army - 2507 killed:

1636 KIA
871 MIA
13096 WIA
3088 sick

Low number of KIA and MIA - if comparing with the number of WIA - is strange in 10. Army. Maybe those who died of wounds were not reported as KIA and are still included here as WIA? The number of KIA + MIA itself also seems to be too low (I come to such a conclusion basing on data which is reffering to casualties of some of divisions from this army).

14. Army - 3442 killed:

2105 KIA
1337 MIA
7767 WIA
6159 sick

It is very probable that casualties of some divisions / other units of this army are not included here (especcialy those documents of which - including almost all casualty accounts - were destroyed during the war and did not survive).

Total numbers from armies listed above (only Heer casualties):

KIA + MIA (killed) = 16165
WIA = 33729
Sick = 11304

To the number above we must add casualties of:

1. XIX Corps of Guderian:

Battle for the Corridor 1. - 4. September:

Around 150 KIA + around 700 WIA (or maybe WIA and MIA ?) + unknown (?) number of MIA (?)

Further combats:

Around 650 KIA + 1586 MIA and WIA (including several hundred MIA)

2. Casualties of units which were fighting in the Coastal region.

I remind that the Polish casualties in the coastal region are usually given as:

107 KIA and MIA officers
2143 KIA and MIA soldiers and NCOs

86 WIA officers
2144 WIA soldiers and NCOs

3. Casualties of units which were not parts of any army (so - for example - Army Groups' reserves).

It should be considered, that - while comparing the datas above with the datas which are listing numbers from each of divisions - it should be noticed that KIA and MIA are in fact the same - and the proportion of KIA to MIA only depends on when the report has been written (how long after the end of the campaign).

So if we want to summ up casualty datas of divisions from the army with the casualty data of the army itself, we should compare number of KIA + MIA with the number of KIA + MIA - because if we compare only KIA with KIA and MIA with MIA - we will probably always receive contradictory - to high in one source, to low in another one - numbers.

Considering it - and also this data on the casualties of 8. Army:
8. Army - 6282 killed:

1892 KIA
4390 MIA
5840 WIA
983 sick
It seems that these casualties:
24. ID - 472 KIA, 98 MIA (ww2 day by day says, that these are only casualties from the battle of Bzura and only until 12th of September 1939)
30. ID - 795 KIA, 617 MIA (same as above)
- I./26. infantry regiment from 30. ID between 13th and 20th of September - 39 KIA, 87 MIA, 58 WIA
17. ID - 291 KIA, 122 MIA (as above - ww2 day by day claims, that this is only from the battle of Bzura up to 12.09.1939)
- Aufklarungs Abteilung of 17. ID - 40 KIA, 57 WIA, number of MIA is not given
10. ID - 352 KIA, 76 MIA
Are in fact only those which were reported during the first phase of the battle of Bzura up to 12th of September - as the German daily reports from ww2 day by day state -, and - in case of 30. Infanterie-Division - only from the first day of the battle of Bzura, as R. Elble states in his book:

"Die Schlacht an der Bzura im September 1939 aus deutscher und polnischer Sicht" by R. Elble - page 137:

"Yet on the first day of the battle at the Bzura, 30. Infanterie-Division lost 800 KIA, over 100 MIA, 750 WIA and 3,000 captured."


Another German author - Bethell - states that the division lost 617 MIA during the first day of the battle.

So it should be:

8. Army during the whole campaign - 6282 KIA + MIA
8. Army between 9th and 12th of September (but 30. Infanterie-Division only from during first day) - more than 3000 KIA + MIA
Last edited by Domen123 on Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

ericv
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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:24 am

FOR THE 2ND TIME: THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT THE GERMAN STELLENBESETZUNG ON 1-9-1939. :)

It's certainly not about how many germans you think the polish killed in 1939 or should have killed it seems. I don't care about that in this topic and would politely ask the moderator to remove the above post from this topic. (I will send him a PM about that) If you want to discuss the reliability of german casualty figures, start your own [email protected]#[email protected]@ topic.

Somewhere in you're above rant you mention something about statistics of the germans. Well, my experience is, that they were a lot better than that of most armies in wwII. The german army certainly gave credit to the polish army where it was due. German soldiers we're a lot more realistic it seems about their own losses and after action reports than you would believe. But then you only believe what you want to believe apparently.. Stop doing that. and if you really insist on doing it, stop spamming my topic full of it and start you're own one.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:32 am

OK - if you have your own casualty breadown for each army and each division - then post it in the proper topic (OK - I'm going to start my own topic as you wish - you can post there) - maybe it is better than mine ???!!!

Because it seems that you didn't even read my post properly (or rather - you just didn't read it at all but ignored it ??!!) - and immediately started your more than stupid and agressive (???) comment towards me? Is it agressive???
If you want to discuss the reliability of german casualty figures, start your own [email protected]#[email protected]@ topic.
First of all I'm discussing the exact breakdown of the German casualty figures (how many losses and what kinds of them did army X suffer, and how many and what kinds did division Y of army X suffered - etc.) - then I will maybe discuss its reliability - when I will have got its complete breakdown.

And it would be much better for you to stop spamming, writing rubbish and commenting one's post, without reading it properly before...

If you don't even know what am I talking about - because you ignored my post and started your stupid agressive answer - better don't post anything.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:44 am

Whatever Domen,

you had some just criticism about mistaken dates, but I am not going to let you turn this topic about 'Stellenbesetzungen' into you're own personal struggle against the unreliability of german casualty figures or whatever your point is. I have read enough about that here : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=75823 ;)

Like I said, start you're own topic. THIS ONE IS ABOUT STELLENBESETZUNGEN

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:47 am

Somewhere in you're above rant you mention something about statistics of the germans. Well, my experience is, that they were a lot better than that of most armies in wwII.
Well - small quotation which - I hope so - can open your eyes for some new facts:
Niklas Zetterling and Anders Franksson discuss the Bagration casualties in their JSMS article "analyzing WWII E.Front battles", as an example of how the German reporting system coped [or rather - didn't cope - Domen] with defeats that made regular, periodical reporting incomplete. The ten-day reports of the armies have some gaping holes in them.
That is why statistics from 8th Army and - especcialy - 30. Infanterie-Division - may be incomplete (as well when it comes to timeframe of those figures, and when it comes to numbers / amounts of casualties themselves).

By the way - what primary source does the history of 30. Infanterie-Division provide for the casualty table which you provided above?
you're own personal struggle against the unreliability of german casualty figures or whatever your point is.
My point is to make an exact breakdown of the German casualties - and then, when I finish this - to compare it with the different versions of overall casualty figures. But the primary point is just to make a casualty breakdown.

In some cases different German casualty figures are just incomplete, rather not unreliable.

More over - some of the German papers on casualties of their units (for example - 8. Infanterie-Division, 5. Panzer-Division) does not exist (some of them were destroyed yet during the WW2).

I only managed to find some - but very incomplete - casualty figures of 5. Panzer-Division in its history. These are - however - only casualties of some units and mainly during the first days of the war.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:26 am

More over - some of the German papers on casualties of their units (for example - 8. Infanterie-Division, 5. Panzer-Division) does not exist (some of them were destroyed yet during the WW2).
The majority of them were destroyed yet during the WW2 - so I suppose that these casualty figures are not included in any of the overall casualty accounts - I would also like to check if I am right in this case, while trying to make this casualty breakdown (it is simple - if I find out what were - according to the casualty reports - casualties of all divisions / brigades / other units of an army or a corps - except those, casualty figures of which were destroyed during the war - I will see if I was right in this case or not).

=============================

By the way - ericv - you provided only one second-hand source on 30. Infanterie-Division in your post - not archival one (unless there is any primary source for these numbers given in this book), and I provided 4 sources on it in my post, which are saying something different (if you had read it properly you would have known this...) - including 3 archival, primary ones. And you still claimed in your later post, that these were: "my believes"... Don't "kill" me any more with such comments please...

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by crolick » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:48 pm

ericv wrote:Here is Division Eberhardt , according to Bellin's book the names changed from Landespolizeiregiment 1 and 2 to 243 and 244 Infanterieregiment on 1-9- 1939. I have come across other names as well however. Danziger IR 1 and 2 for example.. I hope someone can shed some more light on the correct names.
Ahaaa! :D Thats more like it - thanks! :up:

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:03 pm

Hi ericv, you wrote:
There are bound to be more typos and mistakes in the previous lists, If you catch anymore please let me know.
As you wish:
Ib: Rittmeister Wagner (+ 20-9-1939)
Are you shure about the date?

Read it:
According to Volksbund Hans-Jürgen Wagner died of wounds on 28/09/1939:

Nachname: Wagner
Vorname: Hans-Jürgen
Dienstgrad: Major
Geburtsdatum: 09.09.1907
Geburtsort: Greifswald
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 28.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Klinik Zamosc
Is this the same Wagner - or some other one?

Another one:
What i can say is that according to the 11. divisional history, Oberst Klein was commander of IR 44 until he was wounded at or around 3. september 1939 during fighting around the Mlawa. His succesor was Oberstleutnant Wagner (previous commander of III./44). So I am pretty sure about that.
I found info that he was heavily wounded during the night from 1st to 2nd of September in the village Uniszki Zawadzkie.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:42 pm

1. Panzerregiment
Kdr : Oberstleutnant Johannes Nedtwig
Adj : Hauptmann von Werlhof
I. : Major Koppenburg
II. : Major Dittmann (?)
2. : Hauptmann Hörst
8. : Hauptmann von Köckeritz
Hauptmann von Köckeritz was KIA on 16th of September during the battle of Kiernozia. Here are two photos of his Panzer IV after it was destroyed by Polish AT gun type 36 calibre 37mm:

Image

It was later transported to Sochaczew (Towarowa street) and was staying there at least until the winter of 1939 / 1940:

Image

By the way - I do not know if it can help - but I saw that your list from 1. Panzer-Division is incomplete. So maybe it will help you:

Most probably it is Panzer IV number I01 of commander of I battalion of Panzer-Regiment 1. from 1. Panzer-Division - so it seems that it was Panzer IV of Major Koppenburg or Major Dittmann?

But I also found information that Leutnant Jost was serving inside this Panzer IV - maybe someone is able to identify the exact unit and the exact date of his death? (I do not think he managed to survive):

Image

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:40 am

Here is the 50. Infantrydivision.

Each regiment had only 3 companies per batallion Each 13th company had only 2 IG's, the 14th company had only 3 Pak 3,7 cm. There were no regimental Reiterzüger., their position was taken by Radfahrzüge. The Artilleryregiment consisted of 2 Batallions. (2 other were later added II./ AR 39 and II./AR 59) It had a Pionierbatallion and a Nachrichtenabteilung. I am not sure if the division had a Panzerabwehrabteilung though on 1st sept 1939.


Kdr : Generalleutnant Konrad Sorsche
Chef : Eberle ? according to Friedrich Stahl's Heereseinteilung 1939
Ia : Oberstleutnant i.G. Karl Jank
O1 : Hautpmann von Reckow
Ic: Oberleutnant Neuhaus
IIa : Major Pfitzner
III : Oberkriegsgerichtsrat Dr. Herzog
IVa : Oberstabsintendant Dr. Falck
IVb : Oberstabsarzt Dr. Hornung
IVc : Oberfeldveterinär Dr. Friebe
IVd : katholische Pfarrer Gerritschen
evangelische Pfarrer Dr. Hoberg
DiNaFü : Hauptmann Kuckenberg

121. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Rudolf Pilz
I. : Oberst Eckkard von Geyso
1. : Oberleutnant Prahl (+ 6- 9 -1939)
II. : Major Gellert
4. : Hauptmann Richter
III. : Major Kunow

122. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Günther Meinhold
Adj : Oberleutnant Krückeberg
I. : Major von Viebahn
1. : Hauptmann Klammer
II. : Oberstleutnant Benczek
5. : Oberleutnant Schmidt
III. : Hauptmann Kohlstock


123. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Johannes von Block
1. : Oberleutnant Kobe
II. :
III. :


Artillerieregiment (mot)
Kdr : Oberstleutnant Ziegler ?
Adj :
101 : Major Dr. Savelsberg
102 or 103?. :
Early sept, (might be 1st sept) 2 abteilungen were subordinated:
II./AR 39 :
II./AR 59 :


Aufklärungsabteilung 150 ? Its first commander was Rittmeister von Bernhardi. I don't know wether this unit existed on 1st sept 1939 though

Pionierbataillon 71
Kdr : Major Scholz
Adj :
1. : Hauptmann Otto
2. :
3. :

Nachrichtenabteilung 71
Kdr :

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:09 pm

SOurce for the 50. Infanteriedivision was :

Die 50. Infanteriedivision 1939-1945 , Traditionsgemeinschaft 50. Infanteriedivision.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:52 pm

Here is the 44th division

Kdr : Generalleutnant Albrecht Schubert
Ia : Oberstleutnant i.G. Hermann Paul
Ib: Major i.G. Dr. Augendoppler
Ic: Hauptmann i.G. Hufnagl
IIa : Major Dyes
III : Oberstkriegsgerichtsrat von Wiarda
IVa : Int.Rat Weymelka
IVb : Oberstarzt Dr. Rau
IVc : Oberstveterinär Dr. Werner
IVd : katholische Pfarrer Weiss
evangelische Pfarrer Künzel
Waffen und Gerät : Hauptmann (W) Bley
Kommandant Stabsquartier : Major Fell
Arko 44 : Generalleutnant Karl Pfeffer
DiNaFü 44 : Hauptmann Otto

131. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Dr. Franz Beyer
13. : Leutnant von Bar
14. : Oberleutnant Gostischa
I. : Oberstleutnant Niediek
1. :
2. : Oberleutnant Goetze
3. :
4. :
II. : Major Raucheisen
Adj : Oberleutnant Kregler
5. :
6. :
7. : Hauptmann Neubauer
8. :
III. : Oberstleutnant Karl Eibl
9. : Hauptmann Zartmann
10. :
11. : Leutnant Kahle
12. : Major Greifeneder (+ middle sept 1939 )

132. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Generalmajor Josef Brauner von Haydringen
Reg Arzt. : Stabsarzt Dr. Brandt
I. : Oberstleutnant Neibecker
II. : Oberstleutnant Hodissen
III. : Oberstleutnant Dipl Ing. Johannes Schmidt

134. Infanterieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Werner Goeritz
I. : Major von Langsdorff
II. : Oberstleutnant Mundorff
III. : Oberstleutnant Fieweger

96. Artillerieregiment
Kdr : Oberst Fritz Kistner
Adj :
I. : Major Gerhard Bamler
II. : Hauptmann Dieckhoff
III. : Major Angerer
I./97 AR. : Hauptmann Daude

Aufklärungsabteilung 44
Kdr : Oberstleutnant Heinrich Hermann von Hülsen
Adj: Rittmeister Paul von Klein
1. : Rittmeister Arthur Baron von Holtey
2. : Oberleutnant Egon von Sauer-Nordendorf (ab 2-9)
3. : Rittmeister Constantin Graf von Castell-Castell

Panzerabwehrabteilung 46
Kdr : Major Wupper

Pionierbataillon 80
Kdr : Oberstleutnant Friedrich Kussin
Adj :
1. : Oberleutnant Braunsberger
2. :
3. : Hauptmann Leonhard

Nachrichtenabteilung 64
Kdr : Oberst Schusterbauer

Sanitätsabteilung 44
Kdr : IVb
1. : Oberstabsarzt Dr. Weissenbacher
2. : Oberstabsarzt Dr. Matzen\
Feldlazarett(mot) 44 : Oberstabsarzt Dr. Rummler

Veterinärkompanie 44 : Oberstabsveterinär Dr. Liermannn

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by ericv » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:00 pm

Source for the 44. infanteriedivision was :

Die 44. Infanteriedivision, Tagebuch der Hoch- und Deutschmeister, Anton Schimak-Karl Lamprecht- Friedrich Dettmer.

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Re: German Army 1st september 1939

Post by Domen123 » Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:42 pm

It was a rather heavy wound, as Generalmajor Basler took temporary command of the division after that.
How long was he commanding it? In what period?
but i am not sure that he completely lost his forearm though. I've got a photo depicting Briesen, Bursegk and Sieler after the battle soutwest of Oudenaarde (20-5-1940) on which it appears that Briesen not only has both forearms but also appears to be using them.
He had got a prosthesis as far as I know.

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