Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

[Igorn]

Gents,

It is known that W-SS suffered painful defeat in Hungary in March-April 1945. I was reading Ralf Tiemann's Leibstandarte IV/2 and want to share with you some interesting engagements which took place in Hungary near Veszprem in March 1945. Untersturmfuhrer Reiser remembered his misson:

"On 22.03.45 Panzer Group Poetschke was to return to the rollbahn by detouring to the south-through Liter, then turning to the northwest-attack the enemy, open the road to Veszprem and hold it open. Liter was reached at approx. 13.00 hrs. Five additional panzers assembled there-including a Panzer IV with the Flievo (Air Liaison Officer). The Panzer Group then had a total of sixteen panzers. They were refueled and resupplied with ammunition. At 14.30 hrs they set out from Liter to the northwest. The lead element reached the road fork to the rollbahn. After a brief halt they continued in the direction of Veszprem. I was riding in the communications officer's radio SPW. We were the seventh vehicle to reach the road fork: to the right of the road, to the north, visibility was limited by a little acacia wood about 150 meters away-to the left of the road was a hedgerow, behind that a meadow that rose slightly to another forest about 250 meters away. There had been no previous contact with the enemy. The panzers drove along the rollbahn in echelon. Tension was high!

Ten there were two or three flashes out of the acacia wood to the right and the hard bellow of T34 cannon could be distinctly heard. I looked to the rear. An SPW caught it at the road fork-it was burning! The panzers driving in front of us had not noticed what was going on. I jumped out and ran along the road-side ditch to the front. Three vehicles were in front of me before Sturmbannfuhrer Poetschke's panzer. I jumped on. At that moment our lead panzer was hit!

The enemy tanks broke out on the right from the acacia grove and on the left from the othr wood. They had us in a pincer. We had fallen into a trap and defended ourselves desperately. Poetschke ordered over radio: 'turnright-withdraw to the rear!' During the slow movement to the rear we screened ourselves with smoke. It was our only chance since the distance to the enemy was aout 200 meters. On the meadowland we lost several more panzers among which was that of the 'Flievo'. The Oberleutnant flew out of his Panzer IV like a blazing torch... Finally we reached the western edge of Liter. We had taken heavy losses, seven panzers, several SPW's , killed and wounded with severe burns..."

Ralf Tiemann's Leibstandarte IV/2, PP. 251-252

So, only in one engagement the LAH lost 7 panzers and several SPW's as the write-off. The above combat also shows the tactical skills of the Soviet tankers.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Gents,

Some more information about combats at Veszprem. Untersturmfuhrer Reiser is witnessing:

"It was morning, shortly after 06.00 hrs (23.03.45). We were driving through Veszprem with nine panzers, a radio SPW and two Schwimmwagens in order to occupy positions on the edge of the city to the northeast. The city was almost dead. Here and there we ran into vehicles racing through. I drove in a Schwimmwagen with Sturmbannfuhrer Poetschke to reconnoiter the terrain at the edge of the town. The panzers followed. It was a cloudless day and already warm at that earlu hour. We left the vehicle and walked through a garden in order to get a look at the terrain laying before us. Through binoculars we saw an armored column advancing from out of Kodarta-it could have been thirty to forty vehicles-approaching Veszprem from the south. Our panzers caught up and Poetscke fetched all of the commandants in order to brief them on the town and the position. The group of panzer commandants gathered around Poetschke near a shed. Suddenly, there was a massive mortar bombardment. One detonated in themiddle of the group!

The outcome: Poetschke was severely wounded- he died a few hours later. Untersturmfuhrer Muenkemer, Untersturmfuhrer Gerdes, Untersturmfuhrer Huebeck were wounded and three other panzer commandants were more or less severely wounded. None of them were now capable of action. We tried to treat the wounded. That was the darkest day in our Panzer Regiment. The last battle had began-the end was near! ... After losing Poetscke, Malkomes, Wolff and the 'catasrophe of Veszprem' where another eight panzer commandants were wounded, the remnants of panzers were thrown together."

Similar episode took place just few days ago on 21.03.45 when the LAH Divisin Commander Brigadefuhrer SS Otto Kumm was awarded the Oak Leaves with Swords to the Knight's Cross at the I. SS Panzer Corps command post by the commander of the 6TH Panzer Army, Oberstgruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich:

"During the award ceremony the commander of the 501st SS sPzAbt Obersturmbannfuhrer Hein von Westernhagen was mortally wounded by a direct hit on the command post during an air raid."


And some events happened on the same day. Oberscharfuhrer Heinrich Nebel is witnessing:

"Our company fought several house battles in Veszprem, during which our company commander, Untersturmfuhrer Dick was killed."

Obersturmfuhrer Werne Schulz was driving through Veszprem the same day in his panzer when it was set on fire by a hit.

Ralf Tiemann: "After the costly attrition battles in Veszprem the division could no longer be rated according to the customary organization.

Ralf Tiemann's Leibstandarte IV/2, PP. 244-257

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Gents,

On top of losses of 7 panzers on 22nd March and disastrous losses of 23rd March 1945, only on 21 March the LAH lost additional 4 panzers. The casualties included the Hauptsturmfuhrer Malkomes- 2nd Panzer Company, who was killed by a shot to the head on the same day. "He was sitting dead in the turret of his panzer"

Best Regards from Russia,

[sniper1shot]

Guess no one has to buy the book as you are quoting entire pages.

Any reason for the BOLD and coloured portions of your posts?

So, only in one engagement the LAH lost 7 panzers and several SPW's as the write-off. The above combat also shows the tactical skills of the Soviet tankers.

You would hope they learned something after the loses they sustained at the begining of the war. Also, there is not too much tactical skill required in an armoured ambush at night. The Syrians did it to the Israelis and then 1 Israeli tank did it to 10 Syrians in the early 70's during one of the battles for the Golan Heights.

Last point Igorn...no one has ever doubted the losses the Germans suffered in Hungary......but the way you constantly & continually point out, is that the Russians didn't lose anyone or any equipment while this went on.

[Igorn]

You would hope they learned something after the loses they sustained at the begining of the war. Also, there is not too much tactical skill required in an armoured ambush at night. The Syrians did it to the Israelis and then 1 Israeli tank did it to 10 Syrians in the early 70's during one of the battles for the Golan Heights.:

It is really funny to see emotional harrasment comments from the moderator who is supposed to facilitate the discussions. I know some people in the west regret that W-SS suffered painful defeats by the Russian Army.

As far as "You would hope they learned something" I recommend you to find what Guderian, Mellentin and Manteifel were saying about the capabilities of the Soviet tank forces. They really learnt it in the hard way...

Last point Igorn...no one has ever doubted the losses the Germans suffered in Hungary....:

Let's name it correctly. Germans not only suffered in Hungary they were defeated by the Soviet Army!

but the way you constantly & continually point out, is that the Russians didn't lose anyone or any equipment while this went on.

Where exactly I said that Russians didn't lose anyone? Pls. don't put words in my mouth.

Best Regards from Russia,

[sniper1shot]

It is really funny to see emotional harrasment comments from the moderator who is supposed to facilitate the discussions. I know some people in the west regret that W-SS suffered painful defeats by the Russian Army.

If you notice Igorn, there is no discussion.....only your 3 posts. There are people that regret everything these days.....incl the fall of Communism.

Let's name it correctly. Germans not only suffered in Hungary they were defeated by the Soviet Army!

OK, they were defeated....what is your point? Oh, right, you're here to continually tell all the people how the Russian forces did it all.

Where exaactly I said that Russians didn't lose anyone? Pls. don't put words in my mouth.

Igorn, same point that I have written before.......it is what you DON'T say. You constantly post these threads (some are actually informative) that mention the destruction or defeat of German units in Russia with quotes of losses of men and material but NEVER EVER mention how much the Soviets lost in these said victories. As the site here is FELDGRAU this is on the Historical study of the German Armed Forces NOT the Soviet Union. Though some and I mean some of your posts are good to read please start to post losses for BOTH sides (believe I have written this before)....most of us here can take the truth....Soviets defeated the Germans on the Eastern front Soviets lost HUGE amounts of people and material to achieve this victory.

[Igorn]

There are people that regret everything these days.....incl the fall of Communism. :

I can assure you that I am not one of them.

OK, they were defeated....what is your point? Oh, right, you're here to continually tell all the people how the Russian forces did it all.:

I don't get what is wrong in posting first hand accounts about little known tank engagements at Veszprem in March 1945 from the German perspective on the site dedicated to the history of the German army in WW2?

Igorn, same point that I have written before.......it is what you DON'T say. You constantly post these threads (some are actually informative) that mention the destruction or defeat of German units in Russia with quotes of losses of men and material but NEVER EVER mention how much the Soviets lost in these said victories. .:

OK. Point is taken. I don't have with me information about the casualties of the Soviet tankers at Veszprem in March 45 otherwise I would post it.

As the site here is FELDGRAU this is on the Historical study of the German Armed Forces NOT the Soviet Union.

You mean one is allowed to post here information only about the victories of the Wehrmacht and W-SS ? I was writing about little known engagement of the 1. SS LAH from the quite rare book. Judging by the number of posts about the LAH at the Feldgrau this unit is quite popular amongst the Feldgrau visitors. However searching through the Feldgrau I didn't find any info about the tank combats near Veszprem in March 1945. I just wanted to fill the gap...

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Gents,

I was writing in my post about panzer losses of the LAH during 21.0345-23.03.45. I think it would be interesting for you to get details of the 6. (SS) Panzer Armee in Hungary prior to 21.03.45 from the start of the Balaton Lake Operation:

In the period between 6 and 20 March, the Waffen SS divisions suffered substantial losses. Most were below 50 percent of the strength with which they began the operation. The German forces lost 237 tanks and assault guns, 26 field guns and 506 antitank guns in Hungary. By 20 March 1945, the 6.SS Panzer-Armee had fewer than 100 operational tanks and assault guns.

Source: Velimir Vuksic, SS Armor on the Eastern Front 1943-1945, PP. 256



Best Regards from Russia,

[sniper1shot]

I can assure you that I am not one of them.

My point is that you will find someone to regret something.

OK. Point is taken

Thank you !

You mean one is allowed to post here information only about the victories of the Wehrmacht and W-SS ? I aw wriring about little known engagement of the 1. SS LAH from the quite rare book. Judging by the number of posts about the LAH at the Feldgrau this unit is quite popular amongst the Feldgrau visitors. However searching through the Feldgrau I didn't find any info about the tank combats near Veszprem in March 1945. I just wanted to fill the gap...

For someone that comes across as being smart......
LAH is popular among the young (new) readers as that is usually one of the first units that pops up when googled.
It is popular among the older readers and researchers as it fought on every front and all campaigns.
Thanks for filling the gap.........just try to be more neutral in your writtings and not so, um how could I put it......pro Soviet in your writtings. You might be taken more seriously.

[Igorn]

Thanks for filling the gap.........just try to be more neutral in your writtings and not so, um how could I put it......pro Soviet in your writtings. You might be taken more seriously.

Can you pls. bear one pro-Soviet in your pro-German site in order to balance the picture? By the way it will only benefit the Feldgrau since you guys will understand better what was driving Russians during WW2.

Best Regards from Russia,

[sid guttridge]

Hi Igorn,

The problem is that your quotes lack context.

We all know that the W-SS was ultimately defeated. We also all know that it suffered casualties, as does any armed force in combat.

However, casualties are the currency of war. They are expended for a purpose. We don't really know from your quotes whether the casualties concerned were expended for a useful return or not.

As the quotes come from a book about the W-SS, in the words of W-SS men, I don't think one can reasonably suggest that anyone is trying to avoid facing the the fact of W-SS casualties and defeat.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Red Army was the main agent of Nazi Germany's defeat in the field. However, interestingly, the proportion of its casualties suffered by the W-SS on the Eastern Front until the end of 1944 was actually lower than that suffered by the German Army.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Igorn]

We don't really know from your quotes whether the casualties concerned were expended for a useful return or not.
Sid.

Hi Sid, it was good to hear from you. Combats in Hungary including Budapest siege, "Konrad" I, II, III, "Sudwind", "Fruelingserwachen" and Vienna operation are of special interest to me because nearly all named Waffen SS Panzer divisions (LAH, DR, Totenkopf, Wiking, Hohenstaufen, Hitlerjugend) as well as many famous Wehrmacht panzer divisions (1,3,6,13 etc.) took part in these operations. The panzer composition was represented by nearly all best German armor vehicles (Tiger, Tiger II, Panther, StuG IV, Jagerpanzer etc.). The last German offensive operation on the Eastern Front was carefully planned with large scope and secrecy. But even at that time (February-March 1945) all German calculations were based on the underestimation of the enemy.

However from tactical and operational perspectives German panzer forces performed much weaker compared to Citadel. Precise calculation and skilled maneuver warfare, which took place in 1943 were replaced by straight forward fanatical attempts to crush Soviet defense, strengthen by Pak-fronts. Under conditions of spring muddy terrain and lack of air supremacy that was impossible. Again as during Kursk battle Soviet divisional and anti tank artillery was massively applied. The weak point of Soviet anti-tank defense was insufficient endurance of infantry coverage. Sometimes after first strikes of German panzers infantry covering anti-tank gun belts was retreating. This was partially because of offensive mood in mind of Soviet soldiers in 1945 and partially because significant part of 3rd Ukrainian Front (which was fighting in the secondary direction) replenishment came from drafts on the liberated Soviet territories and didn’t have enough training.

From tactical point of view, Soviet anti tank, divisional artillery and SP guns showed their worth from the best side. Firing methods from the short distances at the most vulnerable parts of panzers and SP guns (side and rear armor) were well taught and practiced. These were achieved by means of so called “fire bags” when three-four batteries coordinated their fire against common targets. Interesting to note that German casualties ratio in Balaton and Vienna operation exceeded Soviet losses. That was achieved by large concentration of Soviet artillery, Soviet air supremacy (over 6 regiments of fighter aviation)as well as poor performance of German troops and not good management of German High Command (coordination of Heergruppe F and Heersgruppe Sud, as well as delays in making decisions that had assumed most urgency)

Georg Meier: “The increasingly necessary intervention of Hitler in details, at times all the way down to battalion level). While a unified Russian High Command could provide immediate and rapid coordination and decision making through the use of deputies, this unity and decisiveness was missing on the German side. In any event, the Germans were second rate in comparison to the Russian command and control organization. This gave the Russians an additional advantage.”

Final conclusion of combats at Balaton Lake was of the great importance. Germany didn’t simply suffered defeat in one of the combat operation. As a matter of fact the defeat of German formations in Hungary in March 1945 put an end to the last attempts of Nazi leadership to keep the Third Reich. And significance of this Russian win is not only in fact that Germany lost their last ally (Hungary), lost in Budapest the “second Stalingrad” and at Balaton Lake the ”second Kursk”. The main point is that German panzer forces drained and lost their last combat worthy tank formations, which could be used to inflict counter blows and secondly, Germany lost their last oil fields for their tanks and aircrafts. These losses were not recoverable because remains of the German military industry were not capable to replenish catastrophic losses in tanks after combats in Hungary and provide fuel for future operations.

The victory in Hungary opened the way for Soviet army to Berlin and collapse of the Third Reich was inevitable.

Best Regards from Russia,

[sniper1shot]

What were the Soviet losses for

"Konrad" I, II, III, "Sudwind", "Fruelingserwachen"

The fact there were 3 Konrad operations tells me the Soviets were not able to fullfill all their objectives in Konrad I or II. Which also tells me (an amateur reader) that the Soviets, no matter how well they were trained still had a hard go against the WEAK German units.

All I am asking for is a balanced analysis of your posts. I really do not care who won or who lost.....I read to see how it was done.

You obviously have a wealth of books and research behind you. I would find it hard to believe everything you have, says how great the Soviets had it....

[Kamen Nevenkin]

sniper1shot (or whatever your name is...),

that fact that you are moderator here doesn't put you above the others, let alone give you the right verbally to insult them with no reason. Your post is typical for someone who reads the German (post-war) propaganda 24 x 7, but this is not your fault since the so-called "researchers" know only one approach to the issue, so there are not so many options to choose from.

There is nothing wrong in the last post of Igor(n), especially in the bolded text. As a matter of fact, every balanced historian would have put that. So please, tone down your language since it is obvious that you are not qualified to comment the battles in Hungary in 1944/45. I also would like to add the following comments to your “very balanced” message from Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:57 am:

- The fact there were 3 Konrad operations tells that the first two GERMAN offensives were not able to fulfill none of their main objectives in Konrad 1 of 2. This, in turn, tells me (an amateur historian) that the Soviets, no matter how BAD they were trained, were able to stand fast against STRONG and determined German units. The only objective of the Soviet forces during the Konrad operations was not to allow the Germans to lift the siege of Budapest. Guess who achieved their objectives...

- By 1 January 1945 there were a quarter million German and Hungarian troops under AG Balck, safe the garrison of Budapest. I wouldn't call that a WEAK force, don't you? Let alone that the Soviets didn't have that much men in the area west of Budapest, which definitely make them numerically inferior to the attackers.

- I won't reveal here what the Soviet losses were, but the statistics shows that they were at the same level as the Axis ones.

Kamen

[sniper1shot]

So please, tone down your language since it is obvious that you are not qualified to comment the battles in Hungary in 1944/45.

Language is fine Kamen, so plse step down from your high horse and relax.

*Sigh* Are you qualified? Are you a veteran of said battles?? If so, plse add your points to this as your view will greatly add to this.....if you are not a veteran of said battles and just another researcher or amatuer historian then your points mean nothing other than just jumping on Igorns bandwagon.

Guess who achieved their objectives...

Are we "thumping" our chests again?

I won't reveal here what the Soviet losses were

Of course you won't.....brings my point again. I don't care who won or lost, but I do care for a balanced post. When you only give the stats for one side then that is not balanced.

For every single action where German units were hit and lost men and equipment I am sure our readers out here can find a story where Canadian, British, American and yes, SOVIET forces were hit and lost men and equipment.




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