Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

Moderator: sniper1shot

User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

F/PAUL wrote:As a long-time student of the Russo-German War, I have noticed the increasing number of sovietophile, stalinist apologist, and revisionist postings appearing on many boards. I have learned that, like all agenda based parties, said revisionist/apologist parties have their own schedule to press. In short, the brave, courageous, brilliantly led and equipped soviet army in its crusade against the evil, cowardly fascists. This type of agenda only allows for the soviet army to appear in perfect terms. Since the enemy is a horrific monster, it cannot be seen to have any redeeming qualities. Having seen much of this I have learned that trying to debate, discuss or sanely discourse with these people is fruitless so I have given up. I treat their postings as Tabloid Journalism. I read them, am amused by them, and discard them. In short, for example, an enormous hoopla is made out of the red army reconquest of Kharkov in 1943. They say nothing about the 420 tanks Rominstrov lost to do it. Examples like this are numerous. Suffice it to say that Igorn will continue to post this 'material' , I will read it and then go on to more serious research.
Mr. Paul, I think it will be useful for you to get aquainted with the opinion of David Glantz about the view of the westerners on the Red Army, which he expressd in his introduction to the publication of August Storm: Soviet Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945:

"This critical examination of the final Soviet strategic offensive operation during World War II seeks to chip away at two generally inaccurate pictures many Westerners have of the war. Specifically, Westerners seem to think that only geography, climate, and sheer numbers negated German military skill and competency on the eastern front, a view that relegates Soviet military accomplishments to oblivion. Moreover, Westerners have concluded that little worthy of meaningful study occurred in the Asian theaters of war. These impressions reflect a distinct German bias in the analyses of operations on the eastern front and an anti-Asian front bias concerning World War II in general. Both impressions are false. Yet, over the decades since World War II, they have perpetuated an inaccurate view of the war, particularly of Soviet performance in that war. This Western misconception perverts history, and that perversion, in turn, warps contemporary attitudes and thus current assessments of Soviet military capabilities past, present, and future. Our view of the war in the east derives from the German experiences of 1941 and 1942, when blitzkrieg exploited the benefits of surprise against a desperate and crudely fashioned Soviet defense. It is the view of a Guderian, a Mellenthin, a Balck, and a Manstein, all heroes of Western military history, but heroes whose operational and tactical successes partially blinded them to strategic realities. By 1943-44, their "glorious" experiences had ceased. As their operational feats dried up after 1942, the Germans had to settle for tactical victories set against a background of strategic disasters. Yet the views of the 1941 conquerors, their early impressions generalized to characterize the nature of the entire war in the east, remain the accepted views. The successors to these men, the Schoeners, the Heinricis, the defenders of 1944 and 1945, those who presided over impending disaster, wrote no memoirs of widespread notoriety, for their experiences were neither memorable nor glorious. Their impressions and those of countless field grade officers who faced the realities of 1944-45 are all but lost. This imbalanced view of German operations in the east imparts a reassuring, hough inaccurate, image of the Soviets. We have gazed in awe at the exploits of those Germans who later wrote their personal apologies, and in doing so we have forgotten the larger truth: their nation lost the war-and lost it primarily in the east against what they portrayed as the "artless" Soviets. Our second bias, so conspicuous in our historical neglect of the Pacific theater of World War II, has combined with our acceptance of the German interpretation of the eastern front so as to blind us to what was the preeminent Soviet military effort in World War II-the Soviet strategic offensive of 1945 in Manchuria. For the Soviets, the Manchurian offensive was the logical by-product of their war experience, a surgically conducted offensive with almost predestined results. The fact that Japan was a seriously weakened nation by the summer of 1945 was clear. What was not clear was the prospect of an immediate Japanese surrender. The likelihood of a Japanese G'otterdaimmerung on the scale of Germany's loomed large in the eyes of American and Soviet planners. The potential cost in Allied manpower of reducing Japan could be deduced from the fanatical Japanese resistance on Okinawa as late as April-June 1945, when more than 49,000 (12,500 dead) Americans fell in battle against about 117,000 Japanese troops. And the Home Islands still had more than 2.3 million Japanese soldiers; Manchuria, more than 1 million. So Allied planners expected the worst and designed operations in deadly earnest for what they believed would be prolonged, complicated campaigns against the remaining Japanese strongholds. Based on proven capabilities of the Japanese High Command and the individual Japanese soldier, Soviet plans were as innovative as any in the war. Superb execution of those plans produced victory in only two weeks of combat. Although Soviet planners had overestimated the capabilities of the Japanese High Command, the tenacious Japanese soldier met Soviet expectations. He lived up to his reputation as a brave, self-sacrificing samurai who, though poorly employed, inflicted 32,000 casualties on the Soviets and won their grudging respect. Had Japanese planners been bolder-and Soviet planners less audacious-the price of Soviet victory could well have been significantly higher. Scope, magnitude, complexity, timing, and marked success have made the Manchurian offensive a continuing topic of study for the Soviets, who see it as a textbook case of how to begin war and quickly bring it to a successful conclusion. They pay attention to the Manchurian offensive because it was an impressive and decisive campaign.


Our neglect of Soviet operations in World War II, in general-and in Manchuria, in particular-testifies not only to our apathy toward history and the past in general, but also to our particular blindness to the Soviet experience. That blindness, born of the biases we bring to the study of World War II, is a dangerous phenomenon. How can we learn if we refuse to see the lessons of our past for our future?"

:[]

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources ... nt.asp#aug

Best Regards from Russia,
Last edited by Igorn on Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Igor
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by phylo_roadking »

And you would assist in redressing that "imbalanced view of German operations in the east" by up until now refusing to acknowlege or publish details of Soviet casualties in anything you post?

That is unfortunately NOT "redressing the balance" - it's just changing the bias around 180 degress.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

phylo_roadking wrote:And you would assist in redressing that "imbalanced view of German operations in the east" by up until now refusing to acknowlege or publish details of Soviet casualties in anything you post?

That is unfortunately NOT "redressing the balance" - it's just changing the bias around 180 degress.
I don't get your accusations in this regard. When I have such data I publish it like was the case in this thread 'when I posted losses of the Battalion of Dmitry Loza in combats near Veszprem in March 1945. :wink:

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
User avatar
sniper1shot
Moderator
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by sniper1shot »

Igorn- You only posted the Soviet losses after 2x Mods mentioned the fact you left them out.....again.
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by phylo_roadking »

AND the subsequent posting of them indicates you had them to hand, AND in Loza, your source for the original post.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

phylo_roadking wrote:AND the subsequent posting of them indicates you had them to hand, AND in Loza, your source for the original post.
Really guys, do you enjoy lecturing me? Do you expect me to post every document from ZAMO with the precise data about Soviet losses in each tank engagement we are talking about? I would accept such approach if you would be at least 20% equally demanding to some other members in this forum. :D

PS. Taking the last example of Loza, I was desribing a combat in which his tank battalion ambushed and destroyed the German tank column and I mentioned in the original post the loss of one M4A2 (Sherman). The loss of another Sherman happened after this combat but on the same day. Question: Why you are lecturing me that while posting info about the tank engagement against th German tank column I had to mention the loss of the Soviet Sherman which happened later this day in another combat? This reminds me Soviet censorship since they normally dictated what to write and what not to write. I thought we are having here democracy. :wink:

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
User avatar
sniper1shot
Moderator
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by sniper1shot »

Do you expect me to post every document from ZAMO with the precise data about Soviet losses in each tank engagement we are talking about?
Um, Yes. If you are going to post on units battling units, regardless of who is attacking who, then yes, we do want you to post the battle as it happened. Casualties for BOTH sides.
I would accept such approach if you would be at least 20% equally demanding to some other members in this forum.
Send me the links and I will gladly read them and mention the points to have an equally balanced post. The only issue I have with you Igorn is that you NEVER post anything negative from the Soviet side when you write these posts. They are so one sided it makes for hard reading.
As I have said long ago, I really enjoy reading your posts as they are usually well written but you selectively keep certain issues out like the Soviet casualties. They, the Soviets, did not "all of a sudden" become this great fighting force. They learned through loss of blood. Men, equipment and land were lost to gain this experience. Most countries were this way.

Now don't get me wrong, if there was a big (or small) action you write about and there were no Soviet casualties, then state it. No one really cares as we are all just reading and learning.
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by phylo_roadking »

I thought we are having here democracy
yes - and to ensure everyone has the all the data for themselves to evaluate it for themselves we will ALWAYS encourage people to post both sides of an open-ended subject. We don't expect someone to post up SOVIET casualties if the post is asking ABOUT German casualties...but on an openended topic like the "defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945" then we expect the subsequent discussion to throw up ALL the facts - and would question anyone who has the figures but doesn't produce them.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
User avatar
xavier
Contributor
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:06 pm
Location: 2th ringstraße nr.216

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by xavier »

its useless to argue with Igor, I know it first hand....
save your fingertips for a worth theme...
Xavier
Der Autodidakt
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"

Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

sniper1shot wrote:The only issue I have with you Igorn is that you NEVER post anything negative from the Soviet side when you write these posts.
Why should I post negative information about my army and my country? I post what I want and if this is not in line with your policies you are free to ban me. But this will not change my view of the great Army and the great soldiers who defeated the Wehrmacht in WW2.

Best Regars from Russia,
Igor
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

xavier wrote:its useless to argue with Igor, I know it first hand....
save your fingertips for a worth theme...
...for a worth theme like totenkopf tanks, SS-Brigadeführer Franz Claassen or SS-Sturmbannführer Erich-Günter Schulze of the Wiking". :wink:

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Rchrd
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:31 pm
Location: colorado

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Rchrd »

Igorn, it is obvious that you are well informed. But I generally disregard your perspective, and your posts because you seem to wish people to think that the Red Army never lost a battle, or a man. I think you don't even try to be objective. I too am a hard working historian. Why should I read your postings?
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

Rchrd wrote:But I generally disregard your perspective, and your posts because you seem to wish people to think that the Red Army never lost a battle, or a man.
Where did I say that the Red Army never lost a battle or a man?
Rchrd wrote:I think you don't even try to be objective.
On the contrary, I am posting rarely available information in the west about the strategic, operational and tactical achievements of the Soviet Army, which was the winner in the Germany-USSR war. The problem with you guys on the west that events of the Cold War deprived many of you of objectivity.
Rchrd wrote:I too am a hard working historian. Why should I read your postings?
This is a weird statement. Do you want me to get your blessing for new postings? 8)

Best Regards from Russi,
Igor
F/PAUL
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:16 am

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by F/PAUL »

Sorry Igorn, using soviet records to prove the 'truth' of what happened on the Eastern Front is like using a mideveal Bestiary to prove the existence of the unicorn. The sanitized, homogenized, re-concocted, purged, resorted, recompiled, stalin-approved, polictically correct, state sanctioned, expertly refinished and completely remastered archives aren't worth the time. Soviet record keeping during WWII is known to have been pretty absymal and chaotic. I'm not interested in what Marshal Bombastikov, General Fulloshitov or admiral Worshipatthefeetofstalinov have to say. It's real simple, you guys won a numbers game so get over it and live with it. If you want to buy your own 'facts' and call it hisyoty, that's OK I think it's a load of #$%^%$##@@. Figures don't lie but liars figure and they were real busy in pustwar stalinist russia. You are probably goimng to babble something at me about this post. OK fine. Like said, you guys won a numbers game, that's it.
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Defeat of LAH at Veszprem, March 1945

Post by Igorn »

F/PAUL wrote:Sorry Igorn, using soviet records to prove the 'truth' of what happened on the Eastern Front is like using a mideveal Bestiary to prove the existence of the unicorn. The sanitized, homogenized, re-concocted, purged, resorted, recompiled, stalin-approved, polictically correct, state sanctioned, expertly refinished and completely remastered archives aren't worth the time.
I can read statements like above only with a smile. It is interesting to see that in this case "the sanitized, homogenized, re-concocted, purged, resorted, recompiled, stalin-approved, polictically correct, state sanctioned" memoirs of Dmitry Loza written in 90s (40 years after death of Stalin!) and published in 2006 (there is also English edition of Dmitry Loza book available on amazon.com) corresponded with the offcial chronicle of the Leibstandarete Adolf Hitler division - look page 1 of this thread. This can only mean one thing - the LAH Division had really suffered crushing defeat in Hungary and Austria and lost all of its panzers in these combats.

F/PAUL wrote:Soviet record keeping during WWII is known to have been pretty absymal and chaotic. I'm not interested in what Marshal Bombastikov, General Fulloshitov or admiral Worshipatthefeetofstalinov have to say. It's real simple, you guys won a numbers game so get over it and live with it. If you want to buy your own 'facts' and call it hisyoty, that's OK I think it's a load of #$%^%$##@@. Figures don't lie but liars figure and they were real busy in pustwar stalinist russia. You are probably goimng to babble something at me about this post. OK fine. Like said, you guys won a numbers game, that's it.

Above statements remind me the cold war rhetoric. Normally, ignorrance and arrogance of anti-Russian rhetoric disguised the fear of my country. :?

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Locked