How significant was D-day in the grand scope of WW2??

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:47 am

It might be well to remember that a numbers of factors were in play for the Allies in '44 that were not in earlier years.

The "fortitude" deception plan comes to mind - it is unlikely the Germans would have fallen for that earlier in the war - and before Patton's name had achieved power with them.

Air superiority - we simply hadn't achieved it yet.

Combat experience - very few allied units had it.

But perhaps most important - the German Army had not been culled by years of fighting on the Ost Front. The Heer (and most of the SS) by '44 was a hollow shell. I'd use ss LAH and 2nd Pz as examples on the high end - both full of replacements by then. the infantry? you could count the top quality divisions available on your fingers.

Not so prior to '44. the western allied troops may not have realized it as they were beaten bloody in Normandy but they owed a huge debt of gratitude to Ivan. How demoralizing it would have been if the Americans and British had realized they were facing a remnent!

cheers
Reb

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:01 am

Hi Guys,

D-Day was not necessarily decisive in the outcome of the war, but it was decisive in the post-war settlement.

Without it, Western Europe could not have been secured from Totalitarian rule, be it Nazi or Soviet, there could have been no Cold War victory for Liberal Democracy and the world we now live in would probably be vastly different and less pleasant.

Cheers,

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:28 pm

no Cold War victory for Liberal Democracy

Sid, lets be quite clear - you're saying you believe the West's final "victory" in the Cold War was due to D-DAY???

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:09 pm

Phylo

If you'll permit me to quote Napoleon (and I'm sure you will

) "It is a single drop that causes the bucket to overflow..."

And every journey begins with the first step!

If I think of any other cliches I'll let you know! But I do agree with Sid on this (much as like to argue with him) because if Ivan had made it to the Atlanta it would have been a whole new ballgame.

cheers
Reb

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:22 pm

I'll agree that the success of Overlord at opening a Second Front and driving across France hard and fast - after it got past Caen LOL - and up to the Rhine, and eventually over it allowed the Western Allies to fulfill ALL their parts of every Big Three agreement on the shape of Europe up to the point of the defeat of Germany. However, it did NOT dictate that Stalin would break his (non) agreement over the political shape of Eastern Europe and the various nations formerly in the Greater Reich, that led to the "Iron Curtain" being hwere it was LOL NOR did Overlord actually do anything to foster his innate paranoia that always had him looking at the world in an "ME versus them" fashion that THUS made the Eastern European nations the edge of "his" domain rather than a buffer between the two. It almost accidently gave NATO the shape that it did - y the Americans simply being there still when it came to create something to organise a counter to the Warsaw Pact - but we've discussed this before, Reb, and you KNOW what/who caused the Russians to loose the Cold War LOL and there's NO way that they or their viewpoints etc. could be ANYTHING to do with D-DAY LMAO

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:49 pm

That's three "LOL" and one "LMAO" in a single post, not bad. But if you spent less time distracting yourself laughing while you're writing, you'd might find your views taken more seriously.

cheers

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:35 pm

ooooooh! Shot to the heart!

Maybe if you knew WHAT I was laughing at you'd share in the laughter....

Its just I find it VERY funny that it should be suggested that Overlord led to the final winning of the Cold War - when actually it was THESE two older gentlemen who won it...sprightly OAPs yes, but NOT D-Day veterans or ANYWHERE near it....

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:56 pm

....or maybe Its just that I'm laughing at Sid's description of the USA as the nation that "won" the Cold War as either Liberal OR a Democracy!!!

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:27 pm

I wasn't aware that we'd won the cold war....

Wasn't our objective to keep from being enslaved under communism?

cheers
Reb

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:19 am

Hi Phylo,

No. What I wrote was:

"Without it, Western Europe could not have been secured from Totalitarian rule, be it Nazi or Soviet, there could have been no Cold War victory for Liberal Democracy and the world we now live in would probably be vastly different and less pleasant."

Without D-Day there would have been no "Western" Liberal Democracy, just "Anglo-Saxon" Liberal Democracy, which is not quite the same thing.

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:23 am

Hi Reb,

Yup. The West, largely due to the USA, won the Cold War. You won't find the USSR on any modern map any more than you will the Third Reich!
Rejoice!

Cheers,

Sid.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:43 am

The last time I looked at an English Language course, the idea of two or more commas inside a sentence is indicate a section of that sentence, that while important in content, could be removed without the sentence loosing its sense - like just now!

Thus - and remember YOU always seem to have problems with MY english, Sid -

"Without it, Western Europe could not have been secured from Totalitarian rule, be it Nazi or Soviet, there could have been no Cold War victory for Liberal Democracy...."

is read -

"Without it there could have been no Cold War victory for Liberal Democracy."

Check with any English teachers of your acquaintance....

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:22 pm

Sid

Sadly communism is not an evil restricted to the unlamented Soviet Union. A seething cauldron of that particularly evil can be encountered in that wretched cesspool of wickedness and foolishness on the Potomoc river - Washington DC.

cheers
Reb

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:52 am

Hi Phylo,

In a purely technical sense, you are absolutely correct.

But your concentration on linguistic technicalities completely ignores my point that "Without D-Day there would have been no "Western" Liberal Democracy, just "Anglo-Saxon" Liberal Democracy, which is not quite the same thing."

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:01 am

Hi Reb,

The Cold War was not synonymous with the struggle against Communism. It specifically refers to the inter-state confrontation between the Communist USSR and its allies and the Liberal Democratic
USA and its allies from just after WWII to about 1991. The Cold War was won by Liberal Democracy.

Communism existed before the Cold War and continues to exist after the Cold War. Struggle against it existed before the Cold War and continues after it. Today we are in a post Cold War era.

Ideological struggles never end. Ideas are always still out there and the bad ones will always have to be challenged generation by generation.

Cheers,

Sid.