sPzAbt 503 in Hungary Oct 44 - Jan 45

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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ssocr
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sPzAbt 503 in Hungary Oct 44 - Jan 45

Post by ssocr » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:44 pm

I searched this forum and the net but was not able to find anything on the exploits of sPzAbt 503 in Hungary in late 44/early 45. I know that they were ordered to Hungary after the Ardennes in October 1944. They were involved in the Battle of Debrecen and later went to Budapest but I can't find any details on 503 in Debrecen or Budapest.

Tiger in Combat has some information but I am looking for exploits of King Tigers in general. In addition, I am looking to try and find the names of commanders of 503 King Tigers but have also come up empty with this.

I do not own The Combat History of Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 and was wondering it it is worth the high price. Does it relate commanders to their specific King Tigers?

I just finished reading the Siege of Budapest which is a fascinating history of that bloody battle but their was no mention of the exploits of sPzAbt 503 "Feldherrenhalle".

Can anyone point me in the right direction? :[]

Bernie

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Some Data

Post by Ron Klages » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:45 am

Bernie,

I would recommend you start with the book by Wolfgang Schneider totled TIGERS in COMBAT VOL. I. Stackpole Publishinng now sells an inexpensive version at around $25US. Should be able to find at Amazon.com.

The book on the history of 503 is expensive and while a great book it does not provide names to tanks. It would be more cost effective to look at this book through a library. Libraries have exchange programs with other libraries so if your library does not have it, ask them to see if they can obtain it on loan from another library. I have done that here in the US and it works well.

Here is some info on 503.

When they arrived in Hungary on 12 October 1944 they had 45 Henschel Tiger IIs and 2 Porsche Tiger IIs.

# 200 lost on 1 November [Lt. Brodhagen]
# 313 lost on 2 November [Fw. Seidel]
# 322 lost on 2 November
# 300 lost on 3 November [Lt. Rambow]
2 Tiger IIs sent to Vienna for long-term maintenance on 5 November
1 Tiger lost on 20 November
# 2XX lost on 6 December
10 Tiger IIs lost on 8 December when maintenance facility overrun
# 124 lost on 8 December
# 133 lost of 23 December
1 Tiger II lost on 24 December [Lt. Rambow]
1 Tiger II lost on 9 January 1945
# 121 lost on 11 January
# 122 lost on 11 January
1 Tiger II lost on 1 February
1 Tiger II lost on 17 February

Receive 5 new Tiger IIs on 11 March

1 Tiger II lost on 4 April
1 Tiger II lost on 11 April
12 Tiger IIs lost between 12 April and 29 April
10 Tiger IIs lost between 30 April and 9 May
Last 2 Tiger IIs lost on 10 May 1945


As you can see not all tactical numbers for the Tiger IIs are recorded let alone who was in command of a specific Tiger II.

Hope this bit of data helps.

Best regards and a happy new year,

Ron Klages
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Post by ssocr » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:48 pm

Thanks Ron.

I do have Tigers in Combat I which is where I got most of my info on 503. Just didn't know if the book on the history of 503 was worth all those dinaros. I'll check out my library as you suggested.

For such a successful Abteilung, I'm surprised that there is no more (personal) info available on it than that. But I remember reading somewhere that the battle diary of 503 did not survive the war so that's probably why.

May I ask what the source of your info is?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. :up:

Bernie 8)

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Post by Ron Klages » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:00 pm

Bernie,

Sorry, I thought I noted the source.

It is from TIC I

Ron
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Post by ssocr » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:59 am

Thanks Ron.

I learned something very basic here. I have TIC I and read it thouroughly but neglected to make a simple list of losses/replacements such as you provided me. When you do that, things become much clearer. :[]

Thanks again.

Bernie 8)

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Post by Reb » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:06 pm

Ron

As usual I'm thrilled with the info you provided.

I have one more question though - it sounds as if 503/ FH still had a number of TII equipements on strength at the end. Is that accurate? Did they blow them up?

Since I lied about only question :wink: I'll ask one more (and I suspect I won't like the answer): Did they go into captivity with the Soviets?

thanks
Reb

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:06 am

The las Tiger II , the 100 of Dr. Nordewin von Diest-Körber , was given up near Trebon in Mähren on 9th May , in the End opf April Dr. von Diest-Körber writes about 12- 15 operational Tiger II at the Abteilung , splittered up and deyployed on the whole font lenght of PzKps FHH .

Yes , they fought themself through to the US troops to surrender there , but after that a great bunch of those men where "delivered" to the Red Army :evil:

Bernie , I know you wrote me an E-Mail but I neither had the time to respond ( too busy :shock: ) nor I would have had answered it properly as that simply is impossible :wink:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Reb » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:07 am

Thanks Jan Hendrik

cheers
Reb

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Post by Igorn » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:38 pm

Jan-Hendrik wrote: they fought themself through to the US troops to surrender there , but after that a great bunch of those men where "delivered" to the Red Army :evil:
...which was good! Sure they had some fun in Russia and could have exchanged their tank warfare experience with the Russian peers. :wink:

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Re: Some Data

Post by Igorn » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:55 pm

Ron Klages wrote: Here is some info on 503.

When they arrived in Hungary on 12 October 1944 they had 45 Henschel Tiger IIs and 2 Porsche Tiger IIs.

# 121 lost on 11 January
# 122 lost on 11 January

Ron Klages
Hi Ron,

The info on losses of sPzAbt 503 for the above date is incorrect. As was pointed out by Kamen in another thread according to the history of sPzAbt 503 published by Fedorowicz, on 11.1.45 it lost 3 Tigers as the total losses.

As per the diary of Dr von Diest-Koerber. On p. 314 he says: "We suffered three total losses (including the two Tigers on either side of me)."

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by ssocr » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:42 pm

Jan-Hendrik wrote:The las Tiger II , the 100 of Dr. Nordewin von Diest-Körber , was given up near Trebon in Mähren on 9th May , in the End opf April Dr. von Diest-Körber writes about 12- 15 operational Tiger II at the Abteilung , splittered up and deyployed on the whole font lenght of PzKps FHH .

Yes , they fought themself through to the US troops to surrender there , but after that a great bunch of those men where "delivered" to the Red Army :evil:

Bernie , I know you wrote me an E-Mail but I neither had the time to respond ( too busy :shock: ) nor I would have had answered it properly as that simply is impossible :wink:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
Jan-Hendrik,

As the commander of sPzAbt 503, I was under the impression that von Diest-Koerber's Tiger II had the Roman numeral "I" and not 100.

Image

Bernie

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:24 pm

...which was good! Sure they had some fun in Russia and could have exchanged their tank warfare experience with the Russian peers.
Yes , they still report of the kindness of their "Gastgeber" , until today :wink:

Go , and spam in another Thread :roll:


Yes , Bernie it was the Nr. I , but it has no markings as you can see on the pictures of the bottom of this webpage :

http://www.plusmodel.cz/war-gallery/trebon/index_en.php

:[]

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Post by ssocr » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:37 pm

Thanks Jan-Hendrik,

I am therefore confused. :roll:

The web page that I found the picture of the King Tiger with number "I" on it (above) was attributed to von Diest-Koerber. Are you saying that his tank did not have "I" on the turret?

Bernie

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:00 am

Your "I" seems to be one of the 2 Stabstiger , but the one near Trebon which is identified to be the last one used by. Dr. von Diest-Körber had neither on the left nor on the right side of the turret any tactical marking besides the Balkenkreuz :wink:

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Post by Igorn » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:09 am

Jan-Hendrik wrote: Yes , they still report of the kindness of their "Gastgeber" , until today :wink:
Did they expect a warm reception? :wink:
Jan-Hendrik wrote: Go , and spam in another Thread :roll:
It is not on you to decide. 8)

Concerning the sPzAbt 503 Tiger losses on Jan 11 1945 (knocked out by the Russian ISU-100 near Zamoly) I still did not get a reply on my question.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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