Ortona

[redbaron]

Can anyone give me a listing of the german units involved with the defence?

[Martin Schenkel]

The 1. FSJ Division was responsible for that sector of the front line, however I have a reference indicating that elements of III/6. FSJ Regiment, a training battalion, and an artillery battery were sent to hold Ortona specifically. 6. FSJ Regiment was part of 2. FSJ Division.

[Rich]

The 1. FSJ Division was responsible for that sector of the front line, however I have a reference indicating that elements of III/6. FSJ Regiment, a training battalion, and an artillery battery were sent to hold Ortona specifically. 6. FSJ Regiment was part of 2. FSJ Division.

Martin IIRC you are correct. But at this time 6. FJR was only nominally part of 2. FJD, which was forming in France. It acted as a "fire brigade" in Italy, being committed variously at Salerno, Mignano and Ortona, as well as providing a cadre for the formation of 4. FJD.

German casualties during the fighting at Ortona as reported daily by 1. FJD totaled 73 KIA, 158 WIA and 220 MIA for 21-31 December 1943.

[M.Clifton]

You may want to check on the 90th Pz.Gren.Div.
I believe they were initially pushed back into the town.

[scruffy]

The line from the Adriatic coast inland at the Moro River line was held by the 90th PanzerGrenadier Division. This Division was sent from Sardinia in the summer of 1943 to Italy. The 90th was composed of the 200th and 361st PanzerGrenadier Regiments. By the time the Canadians met them at the Moro River on the 5th of December they were engaged with the 8th Indian Division on the left flank and had just gone up against the 78th British Infantry Division.
As the Canadians made their way north of the river on the 8th of December, still south of the town of Ortona they came up against elements of the 1st Parachute Division, 3rd and 4th Parachute Regiments.
German a.f.v. support was given by the 26th Panzer Regiment of the 26th Panzer Division.
Also present were a number of adhoc groups which I have very little info. on however am told they were as follows: Regiment Liebach, composed of the 3rd Btn. 6th Parachute Reg., (Div. unk. to writer), an air-landing training btn. and an artillery battery.
From what I can gather the 90th was a larger Divisional formation then most. It contained a motorized artillery regt., a motorized anti-tank btn., a motorized engineer btn., an assault gun btn., and a armored recon btn.
Any one out their with more info. on this topic would be most interested in hearing from them.

[Rich]

Any one out their with more info. on this topic would be most interested in hearing from them.

It does not appear that 90.Pz.Gren.Div. was unusual or larger than any other of the Panzergrenadier divisions in Italy at the time, in fact quite the opposite may be true. On 23 December 1943 the division reported a Fehl (shortfall) of 5,662. Unfortunately the first Sollstaerke I have found is from 1 February 1944 and gives 13,957. If we subtract the Fehl from that Soll (which may be low for December, the other divisions reported a Soll of around 15,000) then you have an Ist of only 8,299. That is very weak indeed when you consider that the Ist included soldiers still recovering in hospitals, on leave, and those seconded to other units (for Italy this usually meant detachments from the divisional artillery for coastal artillery duties). All in all it seems that the daily strength of the division would have been under 8,000.

For the period 21-31 December 1943 it appears that the division battle casualties were about 264, with 143 reported sick.

As of 20 December 1943 the division reported the following AFV strengths (total/in repair/ready):

PzIII(7.5) 14/8/6
PzIV(l) 24/18/6
PzBef 5/3/2
StuG 4/3/1
sPak 27/9/18

Losses through 31 December were reported as 5 sPak.

Hope that helps.

[Barbarigo]

In that sector of the front-line there was 65.Infanterie Division, too.
If you have a map, look it.
The division's HQ was in Canosa.
The Artillerie Regiment 165 was near there, in Crecchio.
The Grenadier Regimet 146 was between Guardiagrele and Poggiofiorito.
Finally, the other regiment, the Grandier Regiment 145, was beetwen Poggiofiorito and Ortona.
(All theese listed places are very small towns)

I read this info on an Italian "magazine" that published the map of the 65.Inf.Div. on the Sangro river.
This is all I know.

[scruffy]

Read a refrence book entitled German Army Panzer and Panzer Grenadier Divisions 1943-1944 by Lee Niehorster, copyrite 1982, by Enola Games, P.O. Box 1900, Brooklyn N.Y. and in the U.K. by Navwar, 48 Eastview, Barnet, Herts, EN5 5TN. On pg. 19 of the book the writer states that the 90th PanzerGrenadier Division and the 15th were initially organized somewhat differently then other PanzerGrenadier Divisions in that they both had extra units due to the fact that equipment which had been slated to go to Tunisia was not sent there due to the collapse of the German army in North Africa in 1943. The 90th he refers to as Division Sardinien and the 15th as Division Sizilien.
The writer continues that the units were gradually converted to the regular TO&E during the winter of 1943/44.
I suppose my question is two fold, (if the writer referred to by me is correct in his research).
The first quetion was the 90th well into it's reorganization by the time it met the Canadians on December 5 or had battle attrition against other 8th Army units prior to December 5 negated a need of syphoning off equipment to other commands within it's theatre of operations?
Secondly I am also unsure as to the composition of the 90th in regards to it's historical roots. Sources I have come across refer to it as having been made up of veterns of North Africa and Russia, new German recruits, conscripts(?) or volunteers from occupied Europe. Would this be correct?
Is the 90th the reconstruction of the 90th Light which served in North Africa?
Finally to my Italian amigo, don't worry 'bout your English. It is 100% better then my Italian. Thanks in advance for any info.
Scruffy.

[pt11070]

hi,
Nice to see that someone else is interested in this topic, I am making a mod for Close Combat 5 game that will deal with the Battle for Ortona.

What I have found in my research is that Canadians took over from Brits in December and attacked over Moro River.

Now Brits were fightning 65 Inf. Division. Since 65th Inf. Div. was nearly depleted 90th PG Div. was called to defend the Moro river crossing.

Concerning 90th PG division, it was called 90th light and nickname was Sardinien Div. during Afrika campaign.

90th PG Division had, as somebody mentioned above, 200th and 361th regiments, but I was also able to dig out that they had 190 Pz. Abt regiment attached to them. which would provde the additional armor.

Rich mentioned that on 20th of December the Division Fehl (shortfall) of 5,662. You got to take in account that from December 5 to 20 90th PG Div. fought a fierce battle against Cannadians. So if they are missing 5000 guys it is because of the battle that they just came out of. The main reason that 1 German Para was called in is because 90th PG Div was depleating fast.
First paratroppers came as early as 14th of December and fought for the Gully. It is interesting to know that only one batalion of paratroopers defended the city, by that time Canadians were nearing their limit.

If you guys play games I recommend this older stretegic game. For more info on it and Ortona mod I am making go here.
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/mo ... =0&thold=0

[Rich]

hi,
Concerning 90th PG division, it was called 90th light and nickname was Sardinien Div. during Afrika campaign.

Not quite. The initial incarnation of the division was Divisions-Kommando z.b.V. Afrika, which was retitled Division z.b.V. Afrika, then 90.leichte-Infanterie Division, then 90. leichte-Afrika Division and was surrendered in Tunisia 12 May 1943. It was reconsituted on Sardinia, Corsica and Elba from various service units that had not been sent to Africa, as well as cadres and convalsecents evacuated from Africa and replacements, in July 1943, as Division-Sardinia. It was then evacuated to the Italian mainland in late September 1943 where it continued to absorb replacements and train. It was retitled as 90. Panzergrenadier Division at this time. Its first commitment in Italy as a division was 5-6 December 1943.

Rich mentioned that on 20th of December the Division Fehl (shortfall) of 5,662. You got to take in account that from December 5 to 20 90th PG Div. fought a fierce battle against Cannadians. So if they are missing 5000 guys it is because of the battle that they just came out of. The main reason that 1 German Para was called in is because 90th PG Div was depleating fast.

Sorry, but no, that is incorrect. The division was short 5,662 men because it was still forming, not because it had suffered anywhere near those casualties in its initial battles against the Canadians. In fact, its casualties as reported for 1-20 December 1943 were 229 KIA, 694 WIA, 672 MIA, and 139 Sick, a total of 1,734. In addition, it is likely that there were probably another 200 or so lightly wounded who were treated in field dressing stations and returned to their unit. The 6 January 1944 (not 20 December 1944, re-read my post) Fehl (shortfall) included probably all 2,213 battle casualties and sick reported for the month of December, and possibly some men on leave (probably a small number) as well as minor numbers seconded to other duties. But since the German personnel accounting regulations only kept troops in hospital or otherwise detached from a division on its rolls for just 8 weeks, it could not include any other shortfalls incurred by the division in its earlier incarnation. Thus it may be said that the division was likely short at least 3,100 men when committed on 5/6 December 1943, giving it a probable strength of about 10,000 to 11,000 men.

[pt11070]

Rich,
good to have a response I thought the thread is dead.
You seem to have good sources of Information far better then what I have.
I have few questions.
What was the tank composition at the start of the Moro river crossing for 90th PG Division, i saw you had an count for 20th of December, do you have something similar for the beginning of the battle on the 5th of December?
And can you confirm that they had panthers, as your previous post seems to point that way?
Also do you have similar count for tanks for 26th Panzer Regiment?
I am making computer game mod for the Ortona, i posted a link if you ever have time to visit, and I need a reliable historical info on the troop composition.

Would you be interested in helping me with historical data concerning this battle? or at least help me find kind of info you are sharing in the post, like if it is a book, or a web site you get your info from.
thanks
pt

my email:
[email protected]

[Rich]

Rich,
What was the tank composition at the start of the Moro river crossing for 90th PG Division, i saw you had an count for 20th of December, do you have something similar for the beginning of the battle on the 5th of December?

And can you confirm that they had panthers, as your previous post seems to point that way?

How can I confirm such a thing, when my previous post made no such claim? Viz

As of 20 December 1943 the division reported the following AFV strengths (total/in repair/ready):

PzIII(7.5) 14/8/6
PzIV(l) 24/18/6
PzBef 5/3/2
StuG 4/3/1
sPak 27/9/18

Please point out the Panthers in that list?

As of 30 November when 90 PzGD began to assemble north of the Moro after its move from northern Italy, it had available (only elements that had arrived) operational/in repair:

PzIII (k) 14/5
PzIV (l) 34/4
StuG 6/0
PzBeob 2/1

As of 14 December the division had:

PzIII (k) 3/13 (3 lost since 9 December)
PzIV (l) 14/19 (5 lost since 9 December)
PzBef 1/5
StuG 1/5
PzBeob (not reported)

Losses 14-17 December were:
PzIII (k) 1
PzIV (l) 6
StuG 2

Losses 17-20 December were:
PzIII (k) 1
PzIV (l) 3
PzBef 1

Later in December 2 of the PzIV (l) reported lost were redesignated as long-term repair, but no other tank losses were reported in the month.

Also do you have similar count for tanks for 26th Panzer Regiment?

As of 7 December 26 PzD had (ready/in repair):

Flammpanzer 9/7
PzIII (k and l) 6/25
PzIV (l) 32/35
PzBef 5/3
StuH (i) 2/5
StuG (i) 2/14

Through 31 December they lost:
Flammpanzer 5
PzIII 10
PzIV 21

I am making computer game mod for the Ortona, i posted a link if you ever have time to visit, and I need a reliable historical info on the troop composition.

Would you be interested in helping me with historical data concerning this battle? or at least help me find kind of info you are sharing in the post, like if it is a book, or a web site you get your info from.
thanks
pt

my email:
[email protected]

Sorry, I doubt if I have the time to devote that you need, but am happy to answer specific questions. The data is from some 7 years of research into the records of 10 AOK in Italy.

[pt11070]

Rich,
Nice to meet somebody who knows his stuff.
I guess I dunno the real meaning of PzBef, I would suppose they are Command tanks now since they are not Panthers.
Since you say you would answer specific question here I go:

What kind of gun did panzers III have? I know of 5cm but there is a 7.5 reference behind one of the posts you had, is that reference to 7.5 pak?

Is Spak reference to self-propeled guns? if yes what kind? if no was there any Marders in the area?

Do you have any info on 65th Inf. Div elements that reinforced the Gully area on the 14th of Dec together with 1 para?
Supposedly, recon tank elements from 65th inf Div joined 1 para in reinforcing the Gully area.

Would paratroopers have any tanks with them in TOE?

Concerning Canadians, would you have any info on their tank composition? All I have found is reference to Shermans II and III.

thanks
pt.

[Rich]

Rich,
Nice to meet somebody who knows his stuff.
I guess I dunno the real meaning of PzBef, I would suppose they are Command tanks now since they are not Panthers.

Yes, they are command tanks, based upon PzIII chassis.

Since you say you would answer specific question here I go:

What kind of gun did panzers III have? I know of 5cm but there is a 7.5 reference behind one of the posts you had, is that reference to 7.5 pak?

The PzIII (7.5) was the PzIIIN armed with a 7.5cm L24 gun, the same found on the early models of PzIV.

Is Spak reference to self-propeled guns? if yes what kind? if no was there any Marders in the area?

No, sPak (not Spak) is a reference to schweres-Pak, that is, heavy antitank guns. IN this context they were 7.5cm towed antitank guns, i.e., Pak40.

Do you have any info on 65th Inf. Div elements that reinforced the Gully area on the 14th of Dec together with 1 para?

I don't believe so but will check.

Supposedly, recon tank elements from 65th inf Div joined 1 para in reinforcing the Gully area.

I doubt this, 65 ID had no tanks.

Would paratroopers have any tanks with them in TOE?

No.

Concerning Canadians, would you have any info on their tank composition? All I have found is reference to Shermans II and III.

I'll post this info tommorrow, gotta go.

[Andy Phillpotts]

Hi Rich et al.:

Excellent post Rich. Do you have similar details on the 1. Fallschirmjäger Division in terms of theoretical and actual strength in terms of officers, officials, other ranks, and equipment?

First I'll give you the information that I have. It is from Hans-Martin Stimpel's Die deutsche Fallschirmtruppe 1942-1945: Einsätze auf Kriegschauplätzen im Süden (pp. 267-268).

He says that the Sollstärke (authorized strength) of the division on November 2 was:
404 Officers 17004 NCOs and men

The Ist-Stärke (actual strength) was 185 officers and 6452 men. {I am not sure whether he includes officials (Beamten) in these figures.}

The strength returns for November 7 gives the Gefechtsstärke ("fighting strength") of the division as 4414 men. Fallschirmjäger Regiment 1 had a combat strength of 1270 men, with an average battalion combat strength of 330 men. Fallschirmjäger Regiment 3 had a combat strength of 676 men, with an average battalion combat strength of 133 men. (The strength of Fallschirmjäger Regiment 4 was similar to that of Fallschirmjäger Regiment 3.) The combat strengths of other units with the division were:

Fallschirm-Maschinengewehr-Bataillon 1: 174 men
Fallschirm-Panzerjäger Abteilung 1: 595 men
Fallschirm-Pionier-Bataillon 1: 361 men
Fallschirm-Artillerie-Regiment 1: 557 men

By the time of January 6, 1944 the combat strength of the division had fallen to 3098 men. During the month of December 1943 total losses for the division due to battle casualties, combat fatigue, the weather, and so forth, were 22 officers and 1456 NCOs and men. (The entire losses from July 1943 to January 1944 were 173 officers, and 5212 NCOs and men.)

Stimpel's sources (from the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv) are:

Pz. Armee-Ob. Kdo. 10, Ia/Id, Br.B. Nr. 2775/43 geh. vom 2. November 43, KTB Anlage Nr. 41, s. 5, BA-MA RH 20-10/70

Pz. Armee-Ob. Kdo. 10, Ia/Ic, Nr. 694/43 gKdos vom 2. November 43, BA-MA RH 20-10/71

Bem. z. d. Fahrt d. Hptm. v. Grothe am 29. Februar 1944, s.2, RH-20-10/103.

Stimpel, however, doesn't give the division's situation in terms weapons and equipment, nor does he give the authorized strengths of the regiments, battalions et cetera.

Can anyone add to this?

Cheers,

Andy