Battle of ardennes.

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

that deploying 6. Panzerarmee further south takes the Schwerpunkt even further away from Antwerp....
but the 5. Panzerarmee was doing better, more strngth there would have ensured victory. And about the US V Corps, you could use the Volksgrenadier Divisions to hold them off.
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Post by TimoWr »

Antwerp was out of reach no matter what. Elements of the 6. Panzer-Armee crossing the Meuse River would only have brought more devestation. Lack of fuel, clear weather and open country instead of dense Ardennes woods, combined with a small corridor and the overwhelming strength of the allied airforce would have destroyed the German army.
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Post by Rich »

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:
that deploying 6. Panzerarmee further south takes the Schwerpunkt even further away from Antwerp....
but the 5. Panzerarmee was doing better, more strngth there would have ensured victory. And about the US V Corps, you could use the Volksgrenadier Divisions to hold them off.
But the Volksgrenadier Divisions can only advance if heavily supported by Panzers and if they don't advance they cannot support the advance of the Panzers in the 5. Panzerarmee zone, which makes any advances there even more tenuous. You simply cannot have it both ways. :down: :roll:

Furthermore, that simply doesn't solve the problem of the congested roadspace. You are limiting your axis of advance to a single - not very good - road, running Dasburg-Bastogne-Ortheuville-Marche-Namur or Dasburg-Bastogne-St. Hubert-Rochefort-Dinant. The problem is the Bastogne bottleneck. :down: :roll:

Plus of course that after rolling against presumably no opposition - seems you all like to ignore that :roll: - for 110 kilometers to Dinant/Namur, you are now out of fuel, even if you do manage to capture the roughly 60,000 gallons from VIII Corps depots that the Germans did historically capture. So now how do you intend to get your immobile Panzers to Antwerp, some 90 to 100 kilometers further? Oh, and who exactly defends the 200 kilometers of front on the northern side of your approximately 40 kilometer wide corridor and the 200 kilometers of front along the southern side? :down: :roll:
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Post by Hans Weber »

Jan-Hendrik

This is from a G-2 report that is based on the engagement of Panzer Lehr in the Saar region prior to Wacht am Rhein.

On training after moving into the area of Paderborn (Sennlager)

"...In this area, the various elements of the division were broken down into units as small as platoon and billeted in widely separated parts of Westpahlia. Reports on the training of the units of the division during this period are slightly conflicting due primarily apparently to a lack of coordination in training schedules; however, all agree that there was little training given to company-size units and no field exercises of battalion size or larger were ever carried out. This latter is attributed to the slow influx of personnel, lack of transportation and shortage of gasoline. Prisoners from 901 Panzer Grenadier Regiment report frequent "spit and polish inspections" while weapon training (with exception of introductory lectures on the grenade launcher and bazooka) was non-existent. Prisoners from 902 Panzer Grenadier Regiment report that marksmanship was emphasized at the expense of team and field exercises."

or:

"The Third Army has pointed out in their experience (in the Saar battles) with Panzer Lehr that green tank crews often resort to unpredictable tactics which often react to our disadvantages because they do not follow the accepted enemy pattern. Although the training will not attain the standards of the past, it still must be anticipated that the individuals and small units will handle their weapons effecitivly".

On Personnel:

"The personnel of Panzer Lehr Division is made up of former members of the division which had fought through Normandy plus a large influx of raw recruits from replacement training units and some personnel from depleted units which were incorporated bodily into the division. In 901 Panzer Grenadier Regiment the 1 Battalion is composed almost entirely of personnel from the old regiment while 2 Battalion is 70% made up of the former 509 Mobile Battalion (ie Schnelle Abteilung 509, from Alemb Holland, part of Schnelle Brigade 20), which was swallowed bodily and its units renumbered 5,6.7 and 8 Companies). A few NCO's and other replacements from Panzer Lehr were fitted into the new 2 Battalion to bring it up to the standard of the 1 Battalion. The total strength of 901 Panzer Grenadier Regiment before committment (in the Saar region) including both combat and service elements was approximately 1250 men."

Or:

"Young, inexperienced recruits were mixed with the veterans of the Div and remnants of the 20 Mobile Brigade (ie Schnelle Brigade 20) to reform Panzer Lehr. Captured documents show strength of 902 PGR to be about 1520 (no typo of my part but see above) O and EM. Each PGR is believed to be composed of 2 Bns with 4 Cos in a Bn. The total estimated strength of the Division is 7500."

One further note on supplies:
A PW from Pz Lehr said they had insufficent fuel both to tune up the motors and drive motor vehicles to the RR stations. While moving PGR's from Kirn to Bitsche by organic transportation, the gasoline was so strictly rationed that there was just enough for each vehicle to reacht the next control point."

I hope you see why I find this kind of info a usefull addition to Ritgen and RH 10.

Cheers
Hans
Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

overwhelming strength of the allied airforce would have destroyed the German army.
but the Luftwaffe sent its few hundred remaining planes in Operation 'Norwind', the Luftwaffe could have sent them all to combat the Allies air force at this stage, and would have allowed some time for the advance to continue.

But the Volksgrenadier Divisions can only advance if heavily supported by Panzers and if they don't advance they cannot support the advance of the Panzers in the 5. Panzerarmee zone, which makes any advances there even more tenuous. You simply cannot have it both ways.
you could use the Divisions earmarked for Operation 'Norwind' to support the 5 and 6. Panzerarmee instead.
Furthermore, that simply doesn't solve the problem of the congested roadspace. You are limiting your axis of advance to a single - not very good - road, running Dasburg-Bastogne-Ortheuville-Marche-Namur or Dasburg-Bastogne-St. Hubert-Rochefort-Dinant. The problem is the Bastogne bottleneck.
Engineers could expand the road by cutting down trees, etc, and with the support of the 6. Panzerarmee and the Operation 'Norwind' Divisions, Bastogne would certainly have fallen under such intense pressure.
Plus of course that after rolling against presumably no opposition - seems you all like to ignore that whatever - for 110 kilometers to Dinant/Namur, you are now out of fuel, even if you do manage to capture the roughly 60,000 gallons from VIII Corps depots that the Germans did historically capture. So now how do you intend to get your immobile Panzers to Antwerp, some 90 to 100 kilometers further? Oh, and who exactly defends the 200 kilometers of front on the northern side of your approximately 40 kilometer wide corridor and the 200 kilometers of front along the southern side?
well, the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS could ask the Kriegsmarine to supply more fuel, Hitler, although a stupid blockhead commander, would probably have agreed with that. And there is enough fuel in the whole Reich for this offensive, considering the Panzer forces had fuel to fight in Hungary in 1945. Elements of the 'norwind' operation divisions I mentioned could defend the flanks.

anyways intresting stuff Hans, thanks.

cheers,

Kevin.
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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan »

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:...but the Luftwaffe sent its few hundred remaining planes in Operation 'Norwind', the Luftwaffe could have sent them all to combat the Allies air force at this stage, and would have allowed some time for the advance to continue.
you could use the Divisions earmarked for Operation 'Norwind' to support the 5 and 6. Panzerarmee instead.
Operation Nordwind had a specific purpose in mind. Had it been successful, it would have allowed German armored units to break out into southern France, well behind established Allied lines. I'd love to wargame that out, to see what manner of mayhem could have resulted.
Engineers could expand the road by cutting down trees, etc, and with the support of the 6. Panzerarmee and the Operation 'Norwind' Divisions, Bastogne would certainly have fallen under such intense pressure.
Well, there's a wee bit more to it than that. Your advice would have meant that there would have been decent roads surrounded by wider muddy shoulders. Still not adequate for the rapid movement of mechanized forces. All you'd accomplish there is destroying trees, no real benefit to the units trying to move through.
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Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

Operation Nordwind had a specific purpose in mind. Had it been successful, it would have allowed German armored units to break out into southern France, well behind established Allied lines.
well... maybe that would be a better plan than the Ardennes, using the 5. Panzerarmee and the 5th for this operation, and could surround the Allies armies, including Patton's, in Alsace Lorraine, destroying them. Would have bought time, thanks for this , nice scenarios menioned here! :D
Your advice would have meant that there would have been decent roads surrounded by wider muddy shoulders. Still not adequate for the rapid movement of mechanized forces. All you'd accomplish there is destroying trees, no real benefit to the units trying to move through.
hmmmm... but maybe the engineers could build and expand the roads in the non wooden areas but down?
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Post by Tom Houlihan »

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:hmmmm... but maybe the engineers could build and expand the roads in the non wooden areas but down?
Sure! If they had started the preparations in August! You ever watch anybody build a road? It's a little more difficult than folks like Model Maniac and Nord make it look! :shock:
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Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

ah well! But in the book "Panzer battles" by General Von Mellenthin he mentions that the Red Army could send 1000 man battalions to stamp out the track of a road, and then track machines would follow and pave the way, or something like that, wither way, the road would be built fairly quickly, so perhaps the Wehrmacht could copy this example and build a road liek this in the Ardennes for the Panzers.
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Post by TimoWr »

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:well, the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS could ask the Kriegsmarine to supply more fuel, Hitler, although a stupid blockhead commander, would probably have agreed with that. And there is enough fuel in the whole Reich for this offensive, considering the Panzer forces had fuel to fight in Hungary in 1945.
And how does your strategic mastermind, oh genius one, deal with the logistic problem of transporting all this fuel to the attacking armies?
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Dont think Id have liked to run my nice Maybach tiger engine on naval fuel oil.....more normally known as DERV or Diesel. How do I know? Ive DONE it, many years ago, out of unfortunately unmarked pumps, but by the time the Trading Standards people appeared the pumps had been labelled....cost me a retty good motorcycle. How far did my wheels get after doing it? 25 YARDS. Bit short of the North Sea, that......

Nor can u recrack diesel/fuel oil to get petrol, if it was THAT easy the Kriegsmarine would have ALREADY had it taken off them for the offensive.

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Post by Alex Coles »

Moltke, it was the Germans who used about 300 aircraft in the Ardennes in a huge mass attack, where many were destroyed. IIRC, the "Blitzbomber" was used, right? Hitler's units couldn't get to Antwerp clearly, never mind Liege obviously because mobility had increased then, especially considering Patton could turn his army 90 degrees to the Ardennes in less than 72 hours that just went to show. Another thing being, that all units on the axis side in the Ardennes suffered from lack of fuel, which is why the Germans blitzed into American supply dumps, especially to get their cigarettes :D
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Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

And how does your strategic mastermind, oh genius one, deal with the logistic problem of transporting all this fuel to the attacking armies?
by truck, etc, during the planned period when the Luftwaffe would be heavily engaged with the Allies planes, thus preventing Allies air attack on the supplies.
Moltke, it was the Germans who used about 300 aircraft in the Ardennes in a huge mass attack, where many were destroyed.
well, the planes weren't deployed well, they were all sent to attack airfields instead of protecting troops from air attack by the Allies.
especially considering Patton could turn his army 90 degrees to the Ardennes in less than 72
well, some of the Nordwind Divisions could protect this flank from Patton...
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Post by TimoWr »

HvM, please, your ideas about what was possible at that time are simply ridiculous. Do a search for Unternehmen Bodenplatte to see what the allied airforce did to the Luftwaffe. The German airforce did not have the capability to "heavily engage" the allied pilots, and the German army did not have the fuel and did not have the logistical means to bring fuel from all over the country to the Ardennes. If they had they would have done it during the preperations of the offensive. You sound just like the grofaz, deploying troops and equipment that are simply not available.
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Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

well, about Bodenplatte, here's form Wikipedia:
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Operation Bodenplatte, launched on 1st January 1945, was an attempt to cripple Allied air forces in the Low Countries of Europe. It was used by Hitler as a last resort to keep the Wehrmacht on the offensive during the Battle of the Bulge. Hundreds of Luftwaffe planes were sent on a secret mission, to destroy or cripple as many Allied planes, hangars and airstrips as possible. 465 Allied aircraft were damaged or destroyed. Due to Allied fighter counterattacks, and an unexpected superfluity of Allied flak guns, the Luftwaffe lost 277 planes (62 to Allied fighters and 172 to flak guns, both Allied and German). Some of the remaining planes tried to return home, however, due to the secrecy of the mission, the German flak gun crews opened fire on their own planes. Thus, Bodenplatte was a short-term success but a long-term failure, Allied close-air operations were severely curtailed for some months but their greater industrial capacity meant that their losses were soon replaced, while the lost Luftwaffe aircraft and pilots were a major and irreplacable loss to the struggling Germans.
If this operation was not secret, ans instead was to protect the advancing forces, it might have worked.
the logistical means to bring fuel from all over the country to the Ardennes. If they had they would have done it during the preperations of the offensive.
well, they could sacrifice more fuel from the Italian front and Ostfront for this operation, and use very single truck in the crumbling Reich to deliver fuel to the Ardennes, at the period when the Luftwaffe would be in a death struggle, even if only for a few days, with the Allied air force.
deploying troops and equipment that are simply not available.
but there was still more of it available in 1944, not 1945 when grofaz was growing crazy on the Ostfront.
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