Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:11 am

Hi Moguera.

The factories were already on their way East. So let's discard that one.
Ditto for the hospitals patients.
Are you gonna trade veterinary clinics for all the nickel, manganese and coal deposits in the Donbass?
Are you gonna trade truck depots for all the thousands of trucks, tanks and artillery still in the hands of Budyenny's Front??
To what communication centers are you refering to? It's not like Moscow in '41 was like Baghdad in '91.

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:39 am

i said market garden becouse that was 1 of the places the tactic was used but what stops it being used in the balkans and it was not necisarry for the balkans to be invaded , well maybe greece but why yugoslavia that was in no way in the way of them invading greece any way germany had already alowed for a small force to remain in romania to defend the oil fields .

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:41 am

and taking leningrad would be like taking the factories in moscow 3 times over , the factorys in leningrad were someof the biggest in russai

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:13 am

von_noobie,

I went to ask around a bit: http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2552
Apparently the tank losses in Greece and the Balkans together were around 56 written off panzers - which is about 1/4 of a panzer regiment, I really don't know where you get your info and toss it all over the place.

I don't know why you now talk about Leningrad. Leningrad was supposed to be surrounded and starved and bombarded to an end.

And please try to watch how you write your posts - and if you forger something you can still edit them. And plese try to at least give some idea about what you are talking about, since I somethimes really begin to think that you are making things up...

best,
Nibelung

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:34 am

well lets see

leningrad was surrounded , but by not entering the city while its defences were weak allowed for the defences to be built up , the russians still were able to be supplyed by boat and when winter came they were supplyed by truck becouse of the ice road formed .

so they were able to survive the seige .

this also allowed for more russian troops to be pulled in by boat in the event the german plans changed .

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:24 am

OK this is getting quite strange. You actually claim that the city was surrounded. Leningrad should and was planned to be surrounded, but the complete enclosement of the ring around the city never materialised. Because the Russians had the aproach east of the city the defence could be prolonged and continous. If, however, the German-Finish forces did encircle the whole city as planned, then the Russian defenders would have to surrender sooner or later.

Now please, tell me what sources if any at all, did you use for this?

best,
Nibelung

corderex · Post by **corderex** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:15 pm

said market garden becouse that was 1 of the places the tactic was used but what stops it being used in the balkans and it was not necisarry for the balkans to be invaded , well maybe greece but why yugoslavia that was in no way in the way of them invading greece any way germany had already alowed for a small force to remain in romania to defend the oil fields .

What?

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:06 pm

well to let you know hitlers idea of surrounding the city was by blocking any road leading into it .
stupid him forgot about the ice road and boats.

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:08 pm

you also said the germans had 56 destroyed tanks , maybe so but what about all the short term and long term damage the germans invaded russia like as soon as the balkans was won

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:13 pm

i also read another book at school today called nazi germany by alex woolf page 41 , and in it hitler for a brief period , not many peaple know about , thoght about invading turkey then iraq then persia (iran) which would give him fuel to move his armys and allow for a quick capture of the caspain oil fields and an even quicker capture of starlingrad , and would allow for a two front advance .

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:16 am

von_noobie,

for the last time; please write posts which make sense, which refer to other posts and don't make 3 posts which have no beggining and no end.

Leningrad could be completely sorounded by land, that's if you did ever look at any maps while reading that is. The eastern approach was held, and there was a passage to the lakes - like you correctly stated. Hitler has nothing to do with the point that the German-Finland forces failed to completely surround the city.

I don't know what are you actually refering to with your Yugoslavia claims. The fact is that Barbarossa could be launched in the begining of June, but wasn't because the border rivers were flooding and the weather was not suitable. Do a forum search, this was debated many times before.

Hitler invading Turkey, Iran, Iraq and go towards the Caucasus is nothing but a myth! That was also discussed before in extent. The fact is that this plan was just Hitlers daydream, which had no strategic, logistical or any other common sense in it. But since people really like to be smart and better knowing now, they throw such idiotic stuff into books and documentaries, so that they make it sound greater or more breathtaking.

best,
Nibelung

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:10 pm

the finish would not have been able to surround leningrad becouse the russians still had armour in the area while the fins had a rifle or submachine gun , artillary , ski's , a small fleet which would be useless in this case , they also had to defend an even larger area if you look at a map showing the locations of there forces through out the war .

and hitler also told them to stop as soon as they had reached the coast .

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:39 am

You are wrong again my friend. The Finish forces had armoured units, which later were later formed into the "Panssaridivisoona" - the Armoured division. It was not Hitler who gave them any orders to stop. Marshal Mannerheim ordered them to recapture the border of 1939 and advance to further - to the fury of the German general staff.

best,
Nibelung

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:06 am

maby im wrong but just how good were these tanks

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:42 am

StuG III, is that good enough? ..apart from many more that is.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6265

best,
Nibelung