Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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julian
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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by julian » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:44 am

lwd wrote:
At least I presented data while you simply assembled quotes which suited you.
??? So when you present it it's "data" but whe In present it it's just "quotes which suited" me? We have both presented quotes that support our position. It's pretty clear however that there are a lot more out there that support mine than that support yours. It's clear that you are not capable of a reasoned rational discussion of the topic so I'll not try to convince you otherwise any more. I will continue to point out holes in your logic and "data" however for the edification of others if not you.[/quote]

I am the only one who presented statistical data while you limited yourself to unconvincing generalities.

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by Osterhase » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 am

julian wrote:
lwd wrote:
At least I presented data while you simply assembled quotes which suited you.
??? So when you present it it's "data" but whe In present it it's just "quotes which suited" me? We have both presented quotes that support our position. It's pretty clear however that there are a lot more out there that support mine than that support yours. It's clear that you are not capable of a reasoned rational discussion of the topic so I'll not try to convince you otherwise any more. I will continue to point out holes in your logic and "data" however for the edification of others if not you.
I am the only one who presented statistical data while you limited yourself to unconvincing generalities.[/quote]

How about more detail about this?:
A whole hodgepodge of exaggerated statements. Toppes report which is based on a mass of documentation and Donats study paint a different picture with lots of statistical data. .
Do you have a link or at least ISBN for these? If they paint an entirely different picture of Operation Barbarossa's logistical picture as it pertains to AGC in August-September 1941 I am keenly interested in reading them.
Please provide full titles and relevant info.
Thanks :up:

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by julian » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:34 am

Der Munitionsverbrauch im Zweiten Weltkieg im operativen und taktischen Rahmen by Gerhard Donat , Biblio 1992is available on amazon and some other sites. Cheap it is not but very interesting.
The foreign military studies 1945-1954 manuscripts can be downloaded image by image on fold3.com.

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by Osterhase » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:16 am

Thanks, it was only 24 Euro from Amazon.de (not too bad). I'm curious how this book compares to the facts/opinions expressed in:

Logistik im Russlandfeldzug. Die Rolle der Eisenbahn bei Planung, Vorbereitung und Durchführung des deutschen... von Klaus A Schüler (Dezember 1987).

Schüler was very clear in stating that the necessary logistical support (rail based) was inadequate in July/August to support a successful drive on Moscow (to be clear, I said -successful-).

So what specific foreign military studies are you referring to? Without the title its a much tougher search. Title, page? That stuff helps :wink:

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by julian » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:08 am

Osterhase wrote:Thanks, it was only 24 Euro from Amazon.de (not too bad). I'm curious how this book compares to the facts/opinions expressed in:

Logistik im Russlandfeldzug. Die Rolle der Eisenbahn bei Planung, Vorbereitung und Durchführung des deutschen... von Klaus A Schüler (Dezember 1987).

Schüler was very clear in stating that the necessary logistical support (rail based) was inadequate in July/August to support a successful drive on Moscow (to be clear, I said -successful-).

So what specific foreign military studies are you referring to? Without the title its a much tougher search. Title, page? That stuff helps :wink:
The foreign military studies 1945-1954 are the manuscripts written by German officers for the US Army Historical Division after ww2.
It is manuscript P 190. Searching on alfred toppe on fold3.com will get you where you need to be.

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by Osterhase » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:45 am

Great, thanks! I'm looking forward to reading something new (to me anyway) on the topic. I have quite a few of the foreign military studies, not sure I've seen that one ever though.

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Re: Which city should hitler have gone for on the russian front?

Post by Leandros » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:07 am

I say Leningrad for several reasons. Compared with other important cities on the Soviet front it had the shortest, and best (shipping) transport route, because it was on the flank the conquest of it would have freed up German forces and further improved transport facilities on that flank. That is not to say that it necessarily should be taken by frontal assault (it wasn't) which, loss-wise, could have become an early Stalingrad, but rather to complete the encirclement. As you know the Soviets managed to hold open approx. 150 km. length of Ladoga's shore from where supplies to Leningrad were sent by boat in summer and by ice road during winter. The Finns stood along the Svir River between the southern part of Lake Ladoga and Onega, the Germans held a small portion of Ladoga beach east of Leningrad.

If Army Group North had not been reduced, and the Finns persuaded to attack across the Svir, this should have been possible. I would have given this higher priority than destroying the Soviets at Krim, which could have been sealed off by much smaller forces than used in the OTL.

Fred
http://www.fredleander.com - buy my book on Operation Sea Lion

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