Replacement Panzers for N.Afrika

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Rich
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Post by Rich » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:54 am

Kutscher wrote:I see these numbers and can't helping thinking about 6th Pz. Div.. fighting to the gates of Leningrad with only Pz. IIs and 35(t)s, and then losing ALL its armor by the end of December in the Moscow offensive. Maybe we should attribute the failure of Barbarossa to Mussolini!
Well that's 137 replacement Panzers sent to two divisions originally equipped with a total of 297. Meanwhile in roughly the same period of time (22 June-31 December 1941) a total of 501 replacement Panzers were received by the 19 divisions in Russia (12 Pz-I, 24 Pz-II, 277 Pz-III, 108 Czech-Pz, and 80 Pz-IV), so yes DAK seems to have been relatively well off. Maybe there was more to Hitler's favoritism of Rommel than is readily apparent? Or maybe it was Mussolini who was the favored child of Hitler? :D

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Post by David W » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:41 am

Well that's 137 replacement Panzers sent to two divisions originally equipped with a total of 297. Meanwhile in roughly the same period of time (22 June-31 December 1941) a total of 501 replacement Panzers were received by the 19 divisions in Russia (12 Pz-I, 24 Pz-II, 277 Pz-III, 108 Czech-Pz, and 80 Pz-IV), so yes DAK seems to have been relatively well off.
That's quite remarkable!

I wonder what the real reason was? Could it really be the Rommel/Mussolini charm offensive?

I wonder how the figures compare for 1942?

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Post by Rich » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:34 am

David W wrote:
Well that's 137 replacement Panzers sent to two divisions originally equipped with a total of 297. Meanwhile in roughly the same period of time (22 June-31 December 1941) a total of 501 replacement Panzers were received by the 19 divisions in Russia (12 Pz-I, 24 Pz-II, 277 Pz-III, 108 Czech-Pz, and 80 Pz-IV), so yes DAK seems to have been relatively well off.
That's quite remarkable!

I wonder what the real reason was? Could it really be the Rommel/Mussolini charm offensive?

I wonder how the figures compare for 1942?
Sorry David, I think I should have been less "clever."

I think the whole point is that when we look at it, what we are seeing in Russia are not the numbers of tanks delivered, but rather the number of tanks received. Which in turn points to the real differance; in 1941 it was easier to send tanks by an intact rail system to Italian ports and then ship them by sea to North Africa, despite the sporadic interference of the RAF and RN. So, of those 137 sent only 45 were not received due to enemy interference (again not counting the 13 lost in port due to the fire on the Leverkusen).

OTOH, we know that 501 were reported as received by the panzer divisions in Russia between 22 June and 31 December, but we don't know how many were sent. And the two sets account for only 638 of 226 Pz-I, 550 Czech-Pz, 1,425 Pz-III, and 395 Pz-IV produced just in the last three quarters of 1941. So where did the other 1,958 go? Or the other 1,221 if you just count production in the second half of 1941?

So I think what we are actually finding here is concrete evidence of the logistical difficulties encountered on the Eastern Front in 1941, and especially the difficulty in getting material forward to the divisions at the actual frontline.

Rich

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Post by David W » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:48 am

OTOH, we know that 501 were reported as received by the panzer divisions in Russia between 22 June and 31 December, but we don't know how many were sent. And the two sets account for only 638 of 226 Pz-I, 550 Czech-Pz, 1,425 Pz-III, and 395 Pz-IV produced just in the last three quarters of 1941. So where did the other 1,958 go? Or the other 1,221 if you just count production in the second half of 1941

Good point.

Very interesting.

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:42 am

Hi nmao, Rich, etc.,

Excellent! Loads of hard facts is just what Feldgrau needs.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by Enrico Cernuschi » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:10 am

Perhaps some infos about the Italian tanks and self propelled guns sent in North Africa since 1940 until 1943 may be an useful addendum at this excellent debate:

the total of the Arm. veichles used there was:

L3 458 (306 of them yet in Libya on 10 June 1940)
Fiat 3000 18
L 6 72
M 11 72
M 13 570
M 14 538

S 47/32 103
S 75/18 61

Arm. command battery self propelled for S 75/18 21

Arm. car AB 40 19
Arm car AB 41 247

Arm car on SPA 25 chassis: 8
Ar. car on SPA 38 chassis: 7


Camionette (scout cars) SPA AS 42/43: 19

Camionette (scout cars9 SPA AS 37 mod. : 2


lost at sea (and accidents)

L3 57
M 13 193
M 14 259

S 75/18 18 (with further 5 battery command tanks)

Camionette 42/43 27 (most of them wrecked actually by a RAF night raid over Turin in Nov. 1942).


Bye

EC
Ciàpla adasi, stà léger.

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Post by Lupo Solitario » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:20 am

Enrico Cernuschi wrote: Fiat 3000 18
L 6 72
I got 85 L6 but it's not a so big difference....I'm curious about Fiat 3000 ...and wherever had they been employed?

Lupo

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Post by David W » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:58 pm

I would be very interested in dates (Month & Year) to go along with those numbers, if at all possible.

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Post by nmao » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:02 am

Hello!

Let me share the info i have...
This information is not mine, it was given to me by Arturo Lorioli and the information is taken (i think) from the Italian Official History; i really don´t know how accurate it is. Some of the dates at least, seem suspect.

----
Shipping list of all the tanks the italians sent to north Africa

Only of the Medium Tanks.
Notes : the number of tanks is the *total* number of tanks allocated to each bn, including replacements recieved during the campaign and including also the tanks lost in transit.

1st Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
2nd Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
3rd Bn/4th Rgt (37 x M13/40 - November 7th 1940)
4th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (59 x M13/40 and M14/41 - formed in Africa on August 25th 1941)
5th Bn/32nd Rgt (37 x M13/40 - January 11th 1941)
6th Bn/33rd Rgt - later 32nd Rgt (47 x M13/40 - January 1941)
7th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (50 x M13/40 - March 11th 1942)
8th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (67 x M13/40 - June 22nd 1941)
9th Bn/3rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (90 x M13/40 - October 1941)
10th Bn/133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (52 x M13/40 and 38 x M14/41 - January 22nd 1942)
11th Bn/4th Rgt - later 133rd Rgt then 101st Motor Infantry Div."Trieste"
(26 x M13/40 and 66 x M14/41 - formed in Africa on April 30th 11th 1941 from the remnants of the 8th Bn)
12th Bn/133rd Rgt - (lost all its 52 x M14/42 in transit - January 23rd
1942. Rebuilt in Africa with 52 x M14/41 on May 24th 1941)
13th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (75 x M14/41 - ???
August 1942???)
14th Bn/31st Rgt (60 x M14/41 - August 31st 1942)
15th Bn/1st Rgt - later 31st Rgt (40 x M14/41 and some Sem. M41 75L18 -
December 15th 1942)
16th Bn/32nd Rgt (one company only, with some Semoventi too - date???)
17th Bn/32nd Rgt (45 x M14/41 and 1 x Semovente - Late 1942)
21st Bn/4th Rgt (36 x M13/40 - formed in Africa with crews from the 21st Light Tanks Bn on January 1941)
51st Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (80 x M14/41 - formed in Africa from
crews of the 2nd and 4th Bn - August 25th 1941)
52nd Bn/no Regimental affiliation (9 x M tanks - formed in Africa from
miscellaneous armoured elements - October 22nd 1941)

----

Please criticize/ammend/etc.

bye

-Nuno

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Post by David W » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:39 am

excellent Nuno :D
But can you supply the losses/sinkings so we can tell what actually arrived?

I have a list like yours, I will compare the two, out of curiosity and post the differences for discussion.

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Post by David W » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:45 pm

Not as simple as I had first hoped, as the layout is by arrival date. I have had to guess the distribution to each unit, and as a result, have not included that info. Also it only covers 6 months in 1942, but it does include armoured cars etc.

05/01/42: 52 M.
24/01/42: 46 M.
18/02/42: 4M.
23/02/42: 3M. & 20 A/C.
09/03/42: 33M.
18/03/42: 36M.
04/04/42: 32M. & 40 A/C.
10/04/42: 52M.
13/04/42: 6M.
15/04/42: 15M. & 23 A/C.
24/04/42: 29M. & an unspecified amount of SP guns/A-T guns.
27/04/42: 16M.
02/05/42: 9M.
12/05/42: 39M.
14/05/42: 16M.
18/05/42: 5M.
22/05/42: 2M.
30/05/42: 58L. & 2M.
02/06/42: 3M.
12/06/42: 27L.

??/08/42: 30+ M.

??/09/42: Approx 200 x 47mm A-T guns.

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other armoured vehicles

Post by Eduard » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:44 am

great post and many thanks for the information.

It would be nice if you had information regarding other armoured vehicles. like armoured halftracks, armoured cars and selfpropelld mounts like Pzjag I or pzjag III or the available beutepanzers.

thanks

Eduard

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Post by David W » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:57 am

It would be nice if you had information regarding other armoured vehicles. like armoured halftracks, armoured cars and selfpropelld mounts like Pzjag I or pzjag III
In my post above, A/C = Armoured Car.

Half tracks were quite rare in the desert in the Panzer Grenadier role,(although each of the M/G Battalions had 10 x Sdkfz 251 each) but more common as O.P vehicles, command vehicles Funkwagen etc. I have no figures for reinforcements though.

As for PzJag & PzJag Reinforcements, and A/C initial allocations, see below.

3rd Aufklaerung Abteilung: 02/41 10 x 231 & 15 x 222.

39th Mot PzJag Abteilung: 05/42 5 x Marder II + 24 x Marder II somewhen before 10/42.

605th SP PzJag Abteilung: 03/41 27 x PzJag I + 5 more in 05/41. & 6 x Diana 01/42 + 3 more 02/42. & 28/06/42 2 x 7.5cm SP.

33rd Aufklaerung Abteilung: 04/41 9 x 221 & 6 x 231 & 7 x 222.

33rd Mot PzJag Abteilung: 16/04/42 6 x Marder II + 24 more at 01/09/42.

580th Aufklaerung Abteilung: Late 1941. 6 x 251/10 or 8 x A/C.

220th Aufklaerung Abteilung: 08/42. 6 x 233 & 3 x 231 & 12 x 222 & 6 x 223 & 3 x 232. + 24 x 250. & 3 x Marder II.


Hope that helps.

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Post by kusky » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:20 pm

Hi Rich !!!
I am trying to make a personal work about the North African Campaign.
Please,could you tell me what source (book or another) did you use to show that numbers??.
Great work.
Please, answer me.
Regards.
Jesus.
Rich wrote:
David W wrote:Can any one help PLEASE :D
Sorry David, missed this. Here is the best I can do off hand.

Africa shipments (total arrived plus number lost in transit in parens):

8-10 March 41, 5 le.Afrika-Div. with 25 Pz I, 45 Pz II, 61 (10) Pz III, 17 (3) Pz IV
24 April-6 May 41, 21 Pz.Div. with 45 Pz II, 71 Pz III, 20 Pz IV

Replacements (release date given, all arrived between August and October 1941):
? April 41, 10 Pz III, 3 Pz IV
4 June 41, 15 Pz III, 5 Pz IV
30 June 41, 4 Pz II, 6 Pz III
10 July 41, 4 Pz III
19 December 41, 11 (11) Pz III, 34 (34) Pz IV

Monthly reported shipments:
January 42, 81 Pz III, 18 Pz IV
February 42, 75 Pz III, 22 Pz IV
March 42, 6 (3) Pz III
April 42, 14 Pz III
May 42, 33 (6) Pz III, 9 Pz IV
June 42, 2 (6) Pz III
July 42, 47 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
August 42, 29 (3) Pz III, 10 Pz IV
September 42, 7 (9) Pz III, 12 Pz IV

Arrived November-December 1942:
Pz.Abtl. 190 with 7 Pz II, 52 Pz III, 10 Pz IV
10. Pz.Div. with 19 (2) Pz II, 89 (16) Pz III, 8 (12) Pz IV
s.Pz.Abtl. 501 with 25 Pz III, 20 Tiger

Arrived March-April 43:
s.Pz.Abtl. 504 with 19 Pz III, 11 Tiger
3./Pz.Regt. HG with 2 Pz III, 8 Pz IV

Replacements 1 November 42-1 May 1943:
68 (16) Pz III, 142 (28) Pz IV

So, if I can add them up right for once, 25 Pz I, 120 (2) Pz II, 727 (82) Pz III, 328 (77) Pz IV, and 31 Tiger. Note that of the 1,393 recorded as shipped, only 149 were lost in shipping to enemy action (the 13 lost in March 41 were to a shipboard fire), or just over 10 percent. OTOH note that half those shipped as critical reinforcements to Pz.A.O.K. Afrika in December 1941 were lost.

Hope that helps, I'll see if I can firm up some of the arrival dates, especially in late 42 and in 43.

Rich

P.S., sorry all, just realized I mislaid the 19 December 1941 shipment of replacement tanks in 1942, it has now been corrected.

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Post by Rich » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:31 am

kusky wrote:Hi Rich !!!
I am trying to make a personal work about the North African Campaign.
Please,could you tell me what source (book or another) did you use to show that numbers??.
Great work.
Please, answer me.
Regards.
Jesus.
Thomas Jentz has some information on deliveries of panzers to Africa in both volumes of Panzertruppen, but otherwise the data I have are drawn from the microfilmed records of Panzergroup Afrika and its precedent organizations that are held at the US National Archives. I'm not sure they are found in any other book.

Rich

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