Defeat of the Group Army "South Ukraine" in Romani

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Victor Nitu
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Post by Victor Nitu » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:24 am

Igorn wrote:German loss: 150,000 KIA, up to 100,000 POW
Romanian loss: 8305 KIA, 24989 WIA, 153883MIA and POW
As I mentioned three posts above yours, about 130,000 of MIAs were POWs taken by the Red Army after 23 August 1944. All were taken into captivity in the USSR, although many were experienced soldiers, who could have been very useful against the Wehrmacht. The lucky ones managed to escape and make their way through the countryside to their units HQs in southern Romania. All protests of the Romanian General Staff were dismissed until there were no longer any POW camps west of the Prut River and only then were Romanian inspectors allowed to see that there were no POWs as the Soviet command insisted. Needless to say that in the same time Romanian soldiers were fighting the Germans and the Hungarians on the Carpathians and keeping the passes in Allied hands.

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Post by Pacey » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:07 pm

Does anybody have some some decent maps or charts from the campaign and the movements of the Germans in the Pocket of Pruth?

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1/ Red Army ops versus Feldgrau remit 2/ 'Flaming' 3 / Unity

Post by alan newark » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:38 pm

Igorn....

Privyet! Kak vbi sevonya? Xoposho?

Listen up, laddie. Scottish Alan, in England, surfing in.

What the troops here are trying to say to you is, I would suggest, to try to be a bit less patriotic and rhetoric - focussed and to reinforce your desire for balanced coverage of Red Army / Russian military achievements with, if you like, balanced language and a more tolerant tone?

Who, you might be asking, am I to 'intefere' in this discussion? And is this an 'attack' on you as a person?

Firstly, I 'know' you only from what I have read here in these Forums, so this is not an 'attack'. It is, though, well-meant Old Timer advice.

I can claim to speak, with some authority, as an experienced researcher who has, for many years past, researched the operations of and political backgrounds to the achievements and losses of both the Wehrmacht and the Red Army.

One such credential is that I recently had an article (of several pages in length) published, in translation, by 'Military Historical Archive', an official journal sponsored by the Russian Ministry of Defence. I also have excellent relations with the Moscow-based Association of Former POWs.

In the mid - 1990's, as a freelance journalist here in the UK, I interviewed the then Russian Ambassador to Great Britain. I have twice visited your beautiful country, including Moscow, keep in touch with Russian associates, though my spoken Russian is now very much in need of upgrading, and have, here in Britain and in Russia, met many Russians from all walks of life. In the 1980's, I studied your country's language and literature.

On the flip side, I have several times been to Germany, have German relatives and am well known across several Web Forums as a researcher who is also interested in the German Armed Forces, especially, but not exclusively, during the Weimar and Nazi eras.

As First Vice-President of http://www.dpcamps.org, my 'boss' there is California-based Olga Kaczmar, I am second-in-command of the world's largest independent website devoted to searches for information about Displaced Persons, Refugees, Political Prisoners and POWs, plus their places of detention and internment, of the WWII and early - Cold War eras....

In this capacity, I have helped people of various nationalities, including the relatives of German soldiers and former Soviet citizens, with searches for imformation about loved ones up to 1945 and on both sides of the former Iron Curtain.

Meantime, and this is offered with kindness and sincerity....

Feldgrau, as its name suggests, IS, primarily, a website whose Forums are devoted to study and discussion of German society, culture, government and military affairs in the period 1918 - 1945......It is not, much as knowledge of these matters might enhance Feldgrau's overall raison d'etre, a website for the study of operations, victorious or otherwise, of the Russian / Red Army.

Given time, patience, the availability of funding and the necessary labour of Members, Supporters and Patrons able and ready to assume the responsibility, Jason, who knows, might someday be able to expand the Website sufficiently to embrace a separate section for more detailed study of the Red Army's operations against the Wehrmacht? He might not..

ALL WE CAN DO IS TRY TO BE AS TOLERANT AS POSSIBLE OF OUR INDIVIDUAL PRIVATE VIEWS WHILE ENSURING THAT SUCH VIEWS DON'T SPILL OVER TOO MUCH INTO GENERAL DEBATE OR STUDY OF THE ERAS AND EVENTS UNDER DISCUSSION. NONE OF US - ALL TROOPS TAKE HEED - ARE EXEMPT FROM THAT REQUIREMENT FOR FELDGRAU MEMBERSHIP. NO MATTER WHO UTTERS THEM, 'BUZZ' WORDS LIKE 'NAZI' AND 'COMMUNIST' ARE GUARANTEED TO INFLAME OTHERS' MOODS AND TO PROVOKE NEEDLESS FALLING-OUTS.

Also, fair comment, I do believe that if you can make greater allowances for the reality of Feldgrau's stated remit, there are several individuals in this global 'family' of Feldgrauers who would be willing to help you to work towards achieving at least some degree of more in-depth coverage of Soviet operations.

Take care and feel free to PM or e-mail me.

Poka...Alanu :->
www.dpcamps.org (1st Vice-President)

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Post by Kelvin » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:51 pm

How about the German senior officer casualties in this battle ? killed or captured ?

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Post by Igorn » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:32 pm

Kelvin wrote:How about the German senior officer casualties in this battle ? killed or captured ?
Kelvin, the good source about this battle is OSTFRONT by Alex Buchner. As far as German senior casualties are concerned, for example, the Commanding Generals of German 4th Corps, 306th Infantry Division and 257th Infantry Division were killed in action. According to Buchner two Corps Commanding Generals were killed and three Corps Commanding Generals were captured as POW. Five Divisions Commanding Generals were KIA and 12 were captured as POW. On top 13 more German Generals were captured as POW.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Shadow » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:42 pm

Kelvin wrote:How about the German senior officer casualties in this battle ? killed or captured ?
Does anyone have a copy of "Crumbling Empire – The German Defeat in the East, 1944" by Sam Mitcham?

I believe, though I could be wrong, that he lists the offficer casualties during the destruction of AOK 6 and AOK 8 in Rumania.

Or, it was a list of officers lost during Operation Bagration - I can't remember which, the mind ain't what it used to be !! :D
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by Kelvin » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:50 pm

Hi Shadow and Ignor, I have read Butcher " Ostfront 1944 " and also possess Samuel Mitcham " German defeat in the East " but problem is lack of complete information and some confusion in these two books :
Firstly, both claimed 306th infantry divison commander was killed and nobody know who was he ? but I found that its divisional commander at the moment was Gustuv Hundt who later commanded 1st Jager Division after Sept 1944. So who was killed ?
Secondly I found only one corp commander was killed and four were captured included one omitted by Samuel book : Hell, co of VII Corp
Thirdly, except the 5 division commanders killed, one was missing : Colonel Ottmar Babel 15th infantry division
The Last, the fate of the commander of 335th infantry division Dr Eugen Franz Brechtel , nobody know. Another co of 106th and 161th evaded the capture, but about Brechtel, No people know.
Samuel data on Bagration also had mistake : Florke Co of 14th infantry divison survived the battle and Junck co of 299th wasn't missing in war and lack of info on other generals like commander of Arko (German artillery command in each corps



.

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Post by Shadow » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:20 pm

Greetings Kelvin !! :D

Good research so far !!

Wish I could help you more (see PM) but, alas, I'm tied up.

Good hunting, and I'll be looking forward to the results of your research.

Best regards,
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:26 am

I even would not call Buchner as "source", he was a third class writer, always only rephrasing what other alsready had done, no research in primary sources...in the end not better than Carell :D

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Post by Igorn » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:52 am

Jan-Hendrik wrote:I even would not call Buchner as "source", he was a third class writer, always only rephrasing what other alsready had done, no research in primary sources...in the end not better than Carell :D

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
You know, since six Corps (4th, 7th, 29th, 30th, 44th and 52th); eigtheen infantry divisions (9th, 15th, 62nd, 76th, 79th, 106th, 161th, 257th, 258th, 282nd, 294th, 302nd, 306th, 320th, 355th, 370th, 376th and 384th) as well as 153th division, 10th division and 13th tank division; seven StuG brigades and some other units were completely annihilated and defeated it was not easy for Buchner to get primary sources from German side - because these primary sources are mostly located in the Central Archive of the Russian Defense Ministry in Podolsk 8)

... and Mr. Buchner for objective reasons was not able to get access to these documents. What was left for Buchner is to study the combat histories of defeated German units and quote stories of the very few German offciers who managed to escape from this hell.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:13 am

Thanks for showing again your complete lack of knowledge regarding which material existes in Archives like BAMA or NARA...why could other, better researchers use primary sources? Niepold, Mittlere Ostfront 1944 for example...but I forgot, you seem to like all these third class "historians" :D :D

Was it you who recommend Carell? :D :D :D

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Post by Igorn » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:10 am

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Thanks for showing again your complete lack of knowledge regarding which material existes in Archives like BAMA or NARA...why could other, better researchers use primary sources? Niepold, Mittlere Ostfront 1944 for example...but I forgot, you seem to like all these third class "historians" :D :D

Was it you who recommend Carell? :D :D :D

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
Let's be candid and admit that major chunk of KTBs and other documentation (for the period of Jassy-Kishinev operation) of destroyed German units are not located in Archives like BAMA or NARA but were either destroyed/lost or were captured b Russians and reside in Archives like ZAMO in Podolsk. I am not disputing that there could be some exceptions.

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Kelvin » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:43 am

In my opinion, the definition of destruction of divisions in this campaign was the division was disbanded or not or rebulit or not.
In Jassy Kishinev campaign : 161st, 258th, 282nd, 294th, 302nd, 306th, 335th 370th, 376th and 384th were disbanded.

09th, 62th, 79th, 257th, 320th rebuilt as Volksgrenadier Division

153th field training division rebuilt as grenadier division

15th and 106th still rebuilt as infantry division. some survivors from disbanded divisions were absorbed by 15th and 76th infantry divisions.

But regarding 76th infantry division, many debate on its destruction or not
Some excluded it in destruction list

10th Panzer Grenadier and 13th Panzer division suffered heavy casualties even their commander August Schmidt and Troger respectively were captured, but strangely was not considered " destruction"

3rd Gebirg division also suffered casualties in source Samuel Mitcham " German order of battle volume two"

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Post by Kelvin » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:26 am

One more question, Russian actually destroyed 5 corp staff or six ( one more XXIX Corp ) what I know is commander Bechtoldsheim somehow escaped the capture. Did XXIX corp destroyed too ?

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Post by Kelvin » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:38 am

Hi some one always omitted two divisions destroyed in this battle too. They did not belong to Army Group but to military mission in Romania. : 5th and 15th Flak division. Their commander Kuderna and Hans Simon were captured respecively too. They surrendered at Ploesti and Bucharest

Maybe Historian divided it into two campaign : Jassy-Kishinev for destruction of Army group and another is Soviet invasion of Romania which resulted in destrucition of German troop in that country including two flak divisions

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