Defeat of the Group Army "South Ukraine" in Romani

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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matthall
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Post by matthall » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:48 am

Igorn wrote: While successful operations of Wehrmacht (e.g pockets of 1941 or Kharkov operation of 1943 etc.) were discussed in different threads many times and in great details.
Well, what's the name of this forum? Is it gloriousredarmy.com?

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Post by Shadow » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:14 am

Igorn wrote:Jagdtiger,
Based on these facts, I came to the conclusion that some Feldgrau visitors are interested to study or discuss only successful operations of Nazi Germany and keep quiet & completely ignore military wins and achievements of the Russian Army.
Hello "Igorn" - :D

Have you taken into consideration the fact that it hasn't been all that long since the Berlin Wall came down, Russia began opening it's Military Historical Archives, independent historians have been allowed to study the Stavka files to attempt to discern between "propaganda" history and "real" history, etc. etc. etc.

I can only speak for myself when I say that it's not a case that "I'm not interested" in the accomplishments of the Red Army during WWII, it's just a case that there is still so little written and authenticated (as compared to the mountains of literature covering the Wehrmacht) that I find it still rather difficult to purchase solid Red Army historical information.

Please don't paint all Feldgrauians with the same brush!

Best regards from an interested Canadian -
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by Jagdtiger » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:34 pm

Igorn wrote: Jagdtiger, if you don't belong to this group of people, take my apologies.

Best Regards from Russia,
Accepted :wink:
Gott mit uns!

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Post by sid guttridge » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:16 am

Hi Shadow,

Absolutely!

Sid.

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Post by Curious Volksgrenadier » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:31 am

Hello everybody.
If someone is interested in german order of battle on the eve of operation here is it:

Heeresgruppe Sudukraine 15.8.44

Armeegruppe Woehler (AOK 8)

z.vfg: 8 Rom, 20 Pzg (in abtr) and Gt.Romania Pz Division,18 Rom Mtn

4. Rumanische Armee
XVII AK: 8th Jager, 3rd Gebirgs and Romanian Border units
VII Rom: 103rd & 104th Rom Mtn Bde
I Rom: 6th & 20th Rom
V Rom: 4th Rom & 1st Guards div
LVII Pz: 1st & 13th Rom plus 46th
VI Rom: 101st Rom Mtn, 5th Rom and 76th

8. Armee
Gruppe Mieth
IV Rom: 3rd & 7th Rom, 102nd Rom Mtn and 5th Rom Cav
IV AK: 11th Rom plus 79th & 376th


Armeegruppe Dumitrescu (AOK 8)
z.vfg: 10th Pzg, 1st Slovak, 97th Jager(in abtr) and 153Training Division.

6. Armee
z. vfg: 13th Pz
VII AK: 14th Rom plus 106th & 370th
XXIV Pz: 62nd, 258th, 282nd & 335th
LII AK: 161st, 294th, 320th & 384th
XXX AK: 15th, 257th, 302nd & 306th


3. Rumanische Armee

XXIX AK: 21st Rom, 4th Rom Mtn and 9th
III Rom: 15th & 2nd Rom, plus 110 Rom Bde
II Rom: 9th Rom plus elements of the Danube flotilla

Rear: 1st Rom Cav and 304th (in abtr)

Best regards-
C.V.
Hello, Comrades!

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Post by Igorn » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:04 am

Curious Volksgrenadier,

Thank you for information. Can you clarify the point on sixteen (16) German divisions, which were completely annihilated during this battle according to Huderian and other sources? Do you have more details about these Wehrmacht divisions, which were defeated in Romania (e.g division number, who were commanders of these divisions, when they surrendered etc.)

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Curious Volksgrenadier » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:01 am

Hello everybody.
This list of german units destroued in Romania has been built by Shadow-feldgrau.net forum member. He mailed me it on the last week.

1944 – SIXTH ARMY [AOK-06] destroyed in Eastern Rumania

On 24 August 1944 the German Sixth Army [AOK-06] was surrounded in eastern Rumania by the Soviet 3rd Ukrainian Front. Trapped in the giant pocket between the Dnestr and Pruth rivers were:

VII (7) AK
XXX (30) AK
XLIV (44) AK
LII (52 AK

9 15 62 106 161 257 258 282 294 302

306 335 384 Infantry Divisions

153rd Field Training Division
13th Panzer Division
10th Panzer Grenadier Division

plus 7 Assault Gun Brigades.

Trapped to the west of this pocket was:

IV (4) AK
XXIX (29) AK

76 79 370 376 Infantry Divisions

825th Assault Gun Brigade

With the exception of parts of the 13th Pz Div and 10th PzGR Div all of the above listed formations were totally destroyed.

Best regards-
C.V.
Hello, Comrades!

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Post by Igorn » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:53 am

Curious Volksgrenadier,

Thank you. Excellent stuff. Some more information about German casualties in the Jassy-Kishynev operations of 1944 from David Glantz book, When Titans clashed: "...By 29 August 1944, Army Group South Ukraine had suffered a fate similar to that of Army Group Center- the destruction of Sixth Army and two Rumanian armies and the utter collapse of the German front in Rumania. The German lost control of the Ploesti oilfields and Bucharest by 2 September. German and Rumanian losses exceeded 400,000 men at a cost to the Soviets of about 67,000 casualties. By 1 September, Army Group South, renamed Army Group South Ukraine, had strength returns of only 200,000 men, with 2,000 allied forces. An Axis retreat ensued across the Carpathians, which did not halt until Soviet forces had penetrated Bulgaria and swung westward into the plains of eastern Hungary."

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Michate » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:11 am

The destruction of Army Group South Ukraine was clearly the fastest collapse and probably the most devastating defeat the germans suffered during the war.

The OOB given here is more or less confirmed by Alex Buchner "Ostfront 1944" and by a very knowledgeable guy at a German forum (forum-der-wehrmacht.de).

German losses (without Romanian) are estimated 200,000 men killed or missing.

Most of the Romanian casualties it seems were prisoners taken after Romania surrendered and quit the axis, at least this is what Romanian forum members have told.

Also Romanian troops blocked the retreat routes over the Carpathian mountains which contributed to the Germans not being able to escape.

As to the German strength returns, the soldiers trapped in the pockets were not included, as it was impossible to establish their remaining strength with any sufficient degree of accuracy and their fighting power was mostly eroded anyway.

As to the Soviet losses, they cover the period 20.-31. of August, IIRC, but the fighting would have lasted some more days in early September.

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Post by Igorn » Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:55 am

From the memoirs of General Guderian:

“… We completely lost sixteen German divisions, irrecoverable losses in our even besides it disastrous position… During several weeks the whole Romania was lost. On September 1, 1944 Russians captured Bucharest. Bulgaria dropped from our coalition and on September 8, 1944 took the side of our enemy. We lost 88 (eighty eight) Pz-IV tanks and 50 (fifty) SP guns, which we sent to Bulgaria some time ago. Hitler’s hopes to get at least two Bulgarian anti-bolshevic divisions failed. German solders located in Bulgaria were disarmed and captured as POW. Bulgarians took the Russian side and started fighting against us. Now it became clear to Hitler that it does not make sense to defend Balkans… The war was knocking into Hungary’s door…”

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by Victor Nitu » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:44 pm

Igorn wrote:Curious Volksgrenadier,

Thank you. Excellent stuff. Some more information about German casualties in the Jassy-Kishynev operations of 1944 from David Glantz book, When Titans clashed: "...By 29 August 1944, Army Group South Ukraine had suffered a fate similar to that of Army Group Center- the destruction of Sixth Army and two Rumanian armies and the utter collapse of the German front in Rumania. The German lost control of the Ploesti oilfields and Bucharest by 2 September. German and Rumanian losses exceeded 400,000 men at a cost to the Soviets of about 67,000 casualties. By 1 September, Army Group South, renamed Army Group South Ukraine, had strength returns of only 200,000 men, with 2,000 allied forces. An Axis retreat ensued across the Carpathians, which did not halt until Soviet forces had penetrated Bulgaria and swung westward into the plains of eastern Hungary."

Best Regards from Russia,
Last German troops in Bucharest surrendered on 26 August. On 27 August, the rest of the German troops north of the city in the Baneasa forest were eliminated. Only the command point at Otopeni, further to the north, remained. On 28, they retreated towards Ploiesti, but were taken POWs at Gherghita (25 km south of Ploiesti). The resistance at Ploiesti ceased on 30 August.

Romanian losses during Iasi-Chisinau/Jassy-Kishinev offensive were:
-8,305 KIA
-24,989 WIA
-153,883 MIA
of those an estimated 130,000 were taken POWs after hostilities had ceased between Romania and the Allies, up until 12 September, when the armistice was officially signed.

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Post by Shadow » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:30 am

Greetings Troops,

Further clarification to “Curious Volksgrenadier”’s posting above:

From: “Army Group South – The Wehrmacht in Russia – 1941-1945” by Werner Haupt (Schiffer Publishing Ltd. - Lib.of Congress Cat.No. 97-67600)

Pages 388 – 389:

Quote - “On 24 August 1944, the lead attack elements of the two Russian formations met and, therefore, the 6th Army – for the second time after Stalingrad – was encircled. Units from the 6th and 8th Armies encircled in the pocket on the Pruth were IV, VII, XXX, XLIV, LII Army Corps.
This included the remnants of the 9th, 15th, 62nd, 76th, 79th, 106th, 161st, 257th, 258th, 282nd, 294th, 302nd, 306th, 320th, 335th, 370th, 376th, and 384th IDs, the bulk of the 153rd Field Construction Division, and units of the 10th Armored Infantry Division and the 13th Panzer Division.” - Unquote.

Best regards -
Signed: "The Shadow"

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Post by Pacey » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:44 am

Hello everybody!

I am trying to bring some light in the fate of my grandfather still missing. He was a soldier in the 570th Gren Rgt which was part of the 302 inf. div. destroyed in the pocket on the Pruth. I am particulary interested in exact maps, movements etc of the last days of the division. I heard of a book on the 302. by Emil Kilgast, which unfortunately i was unable to find. If anybody has some detailed info on the fate of the particular division I would be very greatfull.

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Post by Igorn » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:06 am

Guys,

Some interesting stuff from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

August 20th marks the anniversary of the beginning of the Soviet Jassy-Kishinev Operation. This Soviet Offensive, coupled with Rumania’s betrayal of the Third Reich Resulted in the near total destruction of the German Army Group South Ukraine.
Few Soviet victories were as complete as this. Destroyed were some 18 German Divisions, including famous Divisions like the 320th and 336th Infanterie Divisions that had fought so bravely in the aftermath of Stalingrad in 1943. The German 6th Army, reconstructed after its loss at Stalingrad was simply and brutally obliterated. German formations escaping the Soviet offensive faced the hostility of Rumanian civilian and military attacks. The remnants of a once great army was ruthlessly hunted down by its former ally in forest paths and mountain passes as it sought to regain German lines.
The best book about the Romania Compain I read is Col David Glantz's "Jassy-Kishinev Operation" , If you read the day-by-day operation map in this book, you would find the reason of the collaspe of German Army Group South Ukraine was Gen Freissner, commander of Army Group South Ukraine, totally misjudged the main attack point of Soviet army, he predicted the major blow would come from Tolbukhin ‘s 3rd Ukrainian Front , but actually the Soviet major offensive would come from north, from Malinovskii’s 2nd Ukrainian Front , and because Gen Freissner only had one panzer division (13rd) and one panzer Greneder division(10th), he simply could not corret his error after combat began
The Romanian troop faced 3rd Ukrainian Front fought quietly bravely, and Tolbukhin was furious about Romanian's bitter resistance, so even after the armistice, he ordered sending these disarmed Romanian to POW camp, lot of Romanian died there.
However most of Romanian units faced 2nd Ukrainian collapsed in 1-2 days, but there was a reason, German did not consider this part of front would be Red army's main attack direction, so German heavy weapon and armor assigned to this direction was relative few, and Malinovskii concentrated so many tank an artelly here that his offensive was impossible to be stopped, German units at this direction collapsed in matter of days too.
After breakthrough, Malinovskii's tank units almost advanced at will, 23 Aug, the 4th day of Soviet offensive, German 6th army, part of 8th army and 2 Romanian army was ALREADY cut off. Then, at 2000, Aug 23 evening, Romanian Govement asked for armistice, so at least to me, it is quiet clear that, German Army Group south Ukrainian was not collasp because of Romania's "change-side", Romanian's "change-side was because of the COLLAPSE OF THE GERMAN ARMY GROUP UKRAINIAN.
By the way Roberto, I had some information of German loss in this battle:
German loss: 150,000 KIA, up to 100,000 POW
Romanian loss: 8305 KIA, 24989 WIA, 153883MIA and POW
Soviet loss in this battle was surprised low, they only lost 13197KIA or MIA, and 53933WIA

OK, maybe not one of the two "greatest" catastrophes; how about one of the three "greatest"?
Certainly up there with Stalingrad and Army Group Center.

• Loss of the 6th Army (again),
• Loss of much of the 8th Amy,
• Loss of 5th and 15th Luftwaffe Flak divisions, Air units decimated (aircraft, material, ground personnel),
• Loss of the Black Sea naval vessels, equipment, and personnel,
• Loss of Rumanian oil,
• Opened up all of the Balkans to the Soviet advance,
• Rumania changed sides,
• Bulgaria changed sides,
• Pressure on Yugoslav partisans relieved,
• Carpathian mountain passes captured,
I cud go on an on ...

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor

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Post by sid guttridge » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:06 am

Hi Igorn,

I would dispute that Romania betrayed the Axis.

Romania was promised certain things by Hitler, including a guarantee of its territorial integrity, the deployment of a certain number of armoured divisions to support the front in Romania and protection from Anglo-American air attack. It failed to fulfil all three commitments. Romania therefore withdrew from the Axis and gave German forces a period of grace to leave the country without molestation. Instead Germany attacked Bucharest. Only after this did Romania declare war on Germany.

I consider the Iasi-Chisinau operation to be one of the Red Army's best. It hid it intentions successfully, identified Axis weak points and exploited them ruthlessly. The fact that the casualties were so heavily in Red Army favour shows how well judged the operation was on several levels. However, it should be pointed out that the vast majority of Romanians were captured after they had already left the Axis, some as late as early September.

Cheers,

Sid.

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