german losses in the polish campagain ?

[ak74u]

Does anyone have the numbers of the german losses in the invasion of poland ?

KIA, MIA, POW (?)

[Patrick]

This source gives 48.000 casualties, including 16.000 killed. MIAs were not furnished.

http://worldatwar.net/wars/ww2/poland39/

achtungpanzer.com gives different numbers of German casualties (8082 to 10572 killed, 27,278 to 30322 wounded and 3404 to 5029 missing).

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

[Orzel]

I read a statement once that the losses inflicted on the Wehrmacht in the Polish campaign were so severe that they needed 6 months to get back up to 100%. Im not saying that I believe this its just what I read once. Also can anyone provide the losses of the Germans in the French campaign. I think it would be interesting to compare both campaigns, after all the French were quite dismissive of Polands role in the September campaign and Im wondering if rightfully so. Im not looking for more nationalistic rampages just a pure objective comparison of two military campaigns, including losses, length, objectives, kills inflicted along with civilian losses. If you have something worthwile to contribute please feel free however to all members please refrain from comments which could turn this question into a flamewar of words.

[Patrick]

From grolier.com

German casualties in the campaign were comparatively light, approximating 156,000, including 27,000 killed and 18,000 missing.

Roughly three times that in the Polish campaign...

I wouldn't think that the six months was to replenish "huge losses" so much as it was to reorganize, refit, incorporate lessons learnt, and prepare for the invasion of Denmark/Norway.

[Orzel]

what were the french losses like, I know that the Polish losses are hard to determine due to the nature of the campaign as well as the soviet invasion, the ukrainian terrorist movement as well as the germans reocurring executions of polish POW's, but are there any numbers available from objective sources?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Orzel,

The Germans did more than replace losses between the Polish and French Campaigns. They created dozens of new divisions of Welle 5-8. Many of these were assembled in Poland using much Czech and some Polish weaponry. During the French Campaign few if any of the German divisions occupying Poland had existed six months before. The same was true of most of those on the upper Rhine facing the French.

In my opinion the Poles in 1939 performed significantly better than the French in 1940. The French were far more numerous than the Poles and much better equipped. Therefore, although the Poles inflicted less casualties on the Germans than did the French, I would suggest that they made better use of their more limited possibilities.

Cheers,

Sid.

[4444]

In my opinion the Poles in 1939 performed significantly better than the French in 1940

Feldgrau says there were 46.000 German KIA during Fall Gelb, compared to 17.000 KIA during Fall Weiss.

Can anyone somehow break down this 46.000 figure? When and where did these losses occur? Was there a single German division destroyed during Fall Gelb?

[sid guttridge]

Hi 4444,

I don't think that there was a single German division so totally destroyed that it fell out of the Feldheer order-of-battle until Stalingrad.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Patrick]

I've been trying to find German losses on a division-by-division basis and have come up with nothing. All I've found are references to leading companies losing 50-70% of their men near Sedan.

[Corvo]

Hi.

I would like to know more about this polish "Pancerna ACE":

"On September 19, 1939, Sergeant Roman Orlik knocked out 7 German PzKpfw 35(t)s with his TK S with 20 mm gun."
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/poland/tk_tks.html

Some polish ( or anybody) knows more about the tactical situation in that this happened?

Looks like a real feat to me.

Greetings.

[4444]

Sid, Patrick,

thanks. This is more less in line with my expectations.

Still, admit being puzzled by the 46.000 KIA figure. Seems a bit on the high side, esp. given the Wehrmacht fielded some 135 divisions for Fall Gelb and not a single divison was wiped out. Some people say the losses were actually smaller (e.g. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWfranceI.htm gives the 35.000 KIA figure). Opinions?

[Pirx]

Do you know that only during september camaign German tanks and armored cars had large white cross? Later they had much smaller crosses, black inside. White cross on tank or armored car was specielly large to prevent from "friendly fire" from luftwaffe, but was very usefull for antitank guns crew, so Germans lost in september relative large number of vehicles (however most of them was light tanks mark I and II or lightly armored cars).
Near village Mokra (north - west from Krakow) cavalary brigade supported by armored train destroyed and damaged nearly 100 vehicles.
Armored train suprised German units during refilling oil. Germans changed rules of supplies, after that action.

[Der Untermensch]

Some polish ( or anybody) knows more about the tactical situation in that this happened?

you can find quite detailed account in http://www.steelpanthershq.valka.cz/rse ... 2003062201.

According to this site, Orlik knocked out these 7 German tanks in 2 consecutive days, on 17 September (3) and 18 September (4). The battle took place North-West of Warsaw, when remnants of the Polish units which managed brakthrough from the Bzura pocket tried to reach the capital, and was basically fought between the Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade and the 1. Light Division.

Both skirmishes were played along more less the same scenario. The Poles set up a trap, and caught the incoming German abteilungs by surprise. Initially the shoot-out took place at a distance of some 600 metres, but later on was reduced to few hundred metres. http://www.linux-penguin.org/achtungpan ... /poltk.htm say that one of the German tanks destroyed was commanded by Lieutenant Victor Hohenlohe, the prince of Ratibor. The same site attributes the German tanks to the 6. PzDiv, which seems to be incorrect (this unit was formed Oct 1939).

This is the Orlik's TKS tankette:

and this is how German PzKpfw 35(t) looked like:


there are also some other minor inconsistencies mentioned (some say Orlik was a sargeant, some say he was a lieutnant, and some say he was a cadet - which is possibly correct).

[4444]

Richard Pipes claims in his recent book ("Vixi") that the German losses were 90.000 KIA. I have discussed this number in a separate thread (see the Books section).

[Musashi]

Hi.

I would like to know more about this polish "Pancerna ACE":

"On September 19, 1939, Sergeant Roman Orlik knocked out 7 German PzKpfw 35(t)s with his TK S with 20 mm gun."
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/poland/tk_tks.html

Some polish ( or anybody) knows more about the tactical situation in that this happened?

Looks like a real feat to me.

Greetings.

Hola Corvo!

You have a few photos of a monument here:
http://jagdtiger.mm.pl/forum/viewtopic. ... 8&start=20
On 18 September 1939 Warrant officer Roman Orlik amnushed and destroyed three German PzKpfw. 38(t). On the next day he destoyed next seven German tanks (mostly PzKpfw. 38(t)'s). One of them was PzKpfw. III commanded by Lieutenant Victor Hohenlohe, the prince of Ratibor.

Saludos desde Polonia,
Chris