If Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking Pearl Harbor...

[jerijerod]

True. I do believe that had the Germans successfully reached Moscow the ensuing battle would have been as vicious if not worse that the battle of Stalingrad.

With the AWoI I do agree that the British were hemmed in and forced to fight across the world by many foes which caused immense problems. As for the continental war itself the situation in the North was not aided by Clinton's failure to leave New York or to continue Howe's push South from Philedealphia.
Sorry was refering to Cornwallis' campaign in the southern colonies where the his force was kept chasing a phantom army across Virgina and Carolina whilst his supply lines were hit by continental militia who looked no different to normal civilians.
I'm afraid I haven't made it as far as the Channel Islands but they're on my list of places to go to so will look out for the forts. Thanks for the tip :)

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Its interesting but i think that if any nation was ever prepared to fight on both fronts it was Soviet Russia. It definatly had the man power and the resources. I mean lets face it Stalin would have made it possible.
Still I don;t think the Wehrmacht had the strength to defeat the Russians, who were prepared to sacrifice everything and fight to the last man or woman. I strongly believe that had the Germans reached Moscow in 1941 it would have been like Stalingrad. the fierce resistance put up at Stalingrad and Leningrad shows that the Germans and/or Japanese would have had a continual struggle for every inch of land.
Niether nation had the strength or resources to destroy the Soviets even if they combined and coordinated and the western allies were not in the equation.
From an aviation perspective niether side had a long range strategic airforce which could successfully destroy soviet industry in the Urals thus proloning a war indefiinatly until one of the sides was exhausted or completly destroyed.
Also the armour factor would cause problems. German tanks although superior appeared in small numbers compared to the Russians and the Japanese tanks were light "infantry" tanks (as the British would call them.) totally useless compared to the T34 legions.

Hope I haven't gone off on one!!
Chris

*cough* really look how bad the Red Army was trained, yes they were propared to fight to the last man, But the desire to win is not enough. But I think if Hitler had listened to his generals Germany would have won that two front war.

If the USA could win a two front war so could Germany. It is notable that if he had waited until 1943 to begain the war he would have Panther and Tiger tanks on his side. plus Stg 44s and the Wehrmacht would be 3 times as strong as fare as numbers go. yes they could have beaten the allied powers but failed because hitler insisted on playing the general. And as for Moscow It would be another Stalingrad-- Just with a German victory

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Its interesting but i think that if any nation was ever prepared to fight on both fronts it was Soviet Russia. It definatly had the man power and the resources. I mean lets face it Stalin would have made it possible.
Still I don;t think the Wehrmacht had the strength to defeat the Russians, who were prepared to sacrifice everything and fight to the last man or woman. I strongly believe that had the Germans reached Moscow in 1941 it would have been like Stalingrad. the fierce resistance put up at Stalingrad and Leningrad shows that the Germans and/or Japanese would have had a continual struggle for every inch of land.
Niether nation had the strength or resources to destroy the Soviets even if they combined and coordinated and the western allies were not in the equation.
From an aviation perspective niether side had a long range strategic airforce which could successfully destroy soviet industry in the Urals thus proloning a war indefiinatly until one of the sides was exhausted or completly destroyed.
Also the armour factor would cause problems. German tanks although superior appeared in small numbers compared to the Russians and the Japanese tanks were light "infantry" tanks (as the British would call them.) totally useless compared to the T34 legions.

Hope I haven't gone off on one!!
Chris

*cough* really look how bad the Red Army was trained, yes they were propared to fight to the last man, But the desire to win is not enough. But I think if Hitler had listened to his generals Germany would have won that two front war.

If the USA could win a two front war so could Germany. It is notable that if he had waited until 1943 to begain the war he would have Panther and Tiger tanks on his side. plus Stg 44s and the Wehrmacht would be 3 times as strong as fare as numbers go. yes they could have beaten the allied powers but failed because hitler insisted on playing the general. And as for Moscow It would be another Stalingrad-- Just with a German victory

[The Phonebook]

If Japan attacked Russia, they would have ran into 20 divisions and probably be slaughtered, since the Japanese don't have heavy weapons, and put their faith on the dive-bomber.

But, it would have been a good psycological impact on Stalin, realizing that he will be in a 2 front war.

If Hitler kept the German Army in good shape, keeping them fed and supplied, and above all, avoid an advance or major operation, they could have held out until spring, when they have killed enough Soviets to take Moscow and end the war right there.

With the Japanese in the rear, and Hitler on the frontlines, the Axis could have won.

[Brannik333]

HI,

I don't think that the Japaneese could reach any targets in USSR.May be they could invate successful the far east but in Siberiatheir armies don't have any chanse.The nature would stop them.The main theater is Europe.Only very big strategical mistake of Stalin would make in any big trouble fir the Allies.Of course we should not forgot about the oil and the other staffs.

[Paul_9686]

... if (Hitler) had waited until 1943 to begin the war he would have Panther and Tiger tanks on his side. plus Stg 44s ...

Begging your pardon, Reich, but it took war with Russia to bring about the development of all those weapon systems--particularly the Panther, which was heavily influenced by the T-34, a vehicle the Germans hardly knew existed in June 1941.

Had Hitler put off the war till 1943, heaven only knows what he'd have gone to war with--but he sure wasn't one to wait, was he?

Yours,
Paul

[Grunt]

Indeed I doubt if the Japanese (brave and bold fighters of course, my respect) would have done well against the Red Army in 1941. Remember, Shukov beat them in 1939 and in 1945 the Russians just overran the Manchuria lines.

[jerijerod]

I think it is hard to say that had Germany waited till 1943 it would have defeated Russia. After all Russia may have invaded German territory by then, defences would have been tightened etc.
It wasn't completly down to Hitler, some of his military advisors and political toadies were pushing for the defeat of Communism.
Just a thought.
Chris

[asiaticus]

....having read Coox's books on Nomonhan and Chengkufeng, I think that the 1938 clashes at Chengkufeng and especially the 1939 campaign at Khalkhin Gol along with the betrayal by Germany of their anti Comintern pact when thye made their non Agressiion Pact with Russia just when the Japanese where getting their heads kicked in by Zhukov's offensive that destroyed 2 Divisions of Japanese left them with little interest in molesting the Russians any further. This particularly when they realy wanted to take over China. When the Germans then crushed Holland and France and mauled the Britisth leaving their colonies poorly defended and then with the US had the temerity to annoy the Japanese by supporting the Chinese and threaten japan with embargos the diversion of Japan was ensured. Russia seems to have known this was coming and was careful to avoid letting thier Alles know about it guaranteeing the Japanese would be somewhere else than threatening on thier border.

If Hitler had been a little smarter he would have let the Japanese in on his strategem in 1939, so as to have their help later. But of course he seems not to have had that ability. Thankfully both Japan and Germany seem to have beeh rulecd by short term opportunists rather than having a great master plan.

If Japan had been concentrating on attacking Russia in June-August 1941 they would presumably have made some settlement about China that satisfied the USA and Britain so that they would not have had problems with an embargo of oil, rubber and steel. THis is a big change to have been acheived but then we are speculating here.

This presumably would have freed up the Armies in China, those later used in the Southern offensive and those of the Kwangtung Armies also those in Japan and Korea.

This would free up 51 Infantry Divisions, 23 Inf. Brigades, 3 Armored Brigades, and 1 Airborne Division. I havent gotten to counting the fighter and bomber assets available but between those of the army and the Navy I think it would have challenged the Soviets somewhat out of date aircraft and their fleet in the east would have been gone in a hurry.

I beleive at that time the Soviets in the Far East and Mongolia had about 33 infantry Divisons, 1 Cavalry Divison, 3 Motorized Infantry Divisions, 16-19 Mechanized Brigades available and 2800 aircraft. They also had a string of well developed Fortified Regions along the Soviet Manchurian border.

On the liability side the Russians settlements and communications were mostly along the Trans Siberian railway that was often close to the Manchurian border, a great target for airstikes, special ops and subject to interdiction from a well conducted offensive in several different places along its extensive length. It was something all those Divisons would have to defend everywhere while the Japanes only to cut it somewhere. Additionaly the Japanese as we all know had a good navy and plenty of anphibious capbility so that the Soviets would have had an extensive coastline to defend as well, one that could could come close to that railway here and there as well.

At the very least not many of these Siberian units would be heading off to save Moscow had the Japenese actually conducted an offensive against them in the east in the summer of 1941. Given the penatration of Japan's high command by Sorge and Stalin's disbelief of Hitlers intent to invade the Soviet Union, the Soviets might have sent much more of their forces to bolster that front making the German invasion easier than it was.

On the otherhand if Sorge had been able to confirm Hitlers intent Stalin would still be in a pickle but at least the Soviets wouldnt have been caught with their pants down and could have started their mobilization earlier.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

ah, right. Other than Vladivastock, the Japanese would have been attacking nothing, just Siberia, achieving little economic and population gain, etc. However, there would be tough fighting, as the Japanese soldiers were tough, just as the Siberian rifle divisions were. However, despite this, the Wehrmacht would still be unlikely to be able to capture Moscow in 1941, considering that before the Siberians attacked the Wehrmacht in December in front of Moscow the Wehrmacht was already exhausted and stalled. The Wehrmacht would have had to wait until 1942, but it would allow greater flexibility for the Wehrmacht in later battles like Stalingrad and Kursk, as there would be less Soviet Divisions, and thus by 1945 the Soviets wouldn't have controlled as much land. Perhaps this would have allowed more of Eastern Europe to be under Western control, by the post war NATO period. Sorry if I brough up an old thread, but this thread seems intresting.

[phylo_roadking]

well, the Germans weren't stalled in December 1941 - they were stalled in late October and early November by mud, but once the Big Freeze set in again they had immediately pushed forward after a fourteen-day lay-off, and crossed another 30 miles in three day to reach their final point they every came their closest to Moscow, 15 kms from the city centre.

It was at THAT point that Zhulov threw in the "Siberian" divisions, first to stabilise the front THEN throw the Germans back, they had only arrived in the city 9-11 days before, yes via the Trans-Siberian Railway.

It wasnt that they were any better quality soldiers, or bettter fed or equiped, BUT they were cohesive units, totally fresh, never been in combat....but because of the Siberian Military District facing the Japanese in Manchuria were constantly drilling and fully equiped. they were Zhukov's "own" troops, if they could be called such in the USSR, and Zhukov had managed to start repairing the ravages of the Purges in their officer cadre.

Then, and over the next few months once it was obvious that Japan was moving in other directions, a TOTAL of twenty divisions were transferred, and i think 6 were rotated out to there from the west. Throwing THAT many trained, fresh troops into the line would have stabilised it almost by default lol

phylo

[thunderchild]

I'm under the impression that the Japanese came out very badly in their encounters with the Russians and had no desire to continue fighting with them.

[sniper1shot]

They came out badly on the land but not the air.

[phylo_roadking]

that air superiority too would not have lasted, japans ability to mass-produce was FAR smaller than the USSRs, and new designs the match of the Zero in the first two years of Japans war would have appeared all too soon. it only had lightness and nimbleness on its side, at the price of non-sealing fuel tanks, no pilot armour etc. It was the ONE workign proof in the war that it was possible to build a "light" fighter; the French had JUST started with the Renault-Caudron, but other nations attempts were flawed. The Japanese Army Air Force's superiority in all theatres at first was ONLY due to the fact that the Zero could outturn another Allied aircraft....and the AVG in WELL-flown P4o0 busted even that myth in China.

phylo

[sniper1shot]

Yes, quite aware of all that.....the question was about the Russians and Japanese battles at the beginning of the war. In the air they were superior but on the land they lost almost all the battles.