If Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking Pearl Harbor...

[phylo_roadking]

which is what makes discussion of Japans air superiority moot anyway - they had it but it didnt benefit them, so woulodnt have been afactor in any offensive into Russia. The Japanese were great dive bombers yes, but not in the way the Germans were, using it as airborne artillery

phylo

[von_noobie]

From what i can gather the only thing the Japanese could do would be to bomb the rail networks in there range so it would make supplies and reinforcements hard to get there, It would atleast allow for some time the Japanese supply superiority over the Russians, possibly even over run them, But the japanese attacks would need to be timed down to the day, If they attack to soon the Russians will defeat them before Germany reaches Moscow, If to late then its just a waste of time, They would need to attack around November-December 1941, Thus prevent Siberian troops going to Moscow,

[Alex Coles]

You see, "Siberian Troops" are a mere myth, and if the japanese damaged the Trans-Siberian railway, that would prevent them transporting equipment through in their campaign and would aid the russians more, because of their large amount of land, the asian half majority is impassable.

[von_noobie]

Well with the factorys so far away there got to run out of ammo some time, So the japanese could go off to a normal advance speed since its not like they are going as fast as German panzers, they coul easily repair a rail line in no time. There advance isnt holded up then.

[phylo_roadking]

theres another thread sumwhere where our friends Helmut and someone else argued stuff like this out. Even in decent campaigning weather the Siberian Tagus is almost totally impassable without HEAVY tracked vehciles and whole divisions of construction troops. Which is exactly how the Russians conducted THEIR offensive in 1945 - months of covert construction of "corduroy" roads through the forests to run their armour.
As for the Trans Siberian railway as an axis for an offensive....no, it doesnt work like that; do you have ANY idea how easy it is to erase or wreck railroad? take a look at the American Civil War; enough empty hands, a big fire and your rails get bent into pretzel round treetrunks LMAO And just TRY rebuilding it under constant air attack......
And THATS before the Russians would have destroyed every piece of rolling stock they would have got their hands on - THEY were the experts at "scorched earth" remember? Bringing rolling stock from Japan by sea wasnt the answer either, because of the wider Russian gauge versus the Japanese European standard! Look at what the Germans had to do in the Occupied part of Russia to match railway gauges.

Siberia then was not even remotely as hospitable as Siberia is today; if you can call isolated towns only linked by air in most cases hospitable lol Millions of square miles of impassable NOTHING - no raods no trails nothing. Not even the Russians had decent maps of it in WWII away from the railway line.

Think of the problem in these terms; the Western Desert campaigns were delineated by the Med to the North and either the Sand Sea but mostly the Qattara Depression to the south - an untracked wilderness of quicksands. For quicksands in Siberia read summertime bogs and swamps among the trees, and trees among the bogs lol lol Qattara Depression x1000!

phylo

[von_noobie]

Ok, i under stand were you are coming from but many times i have been told railways are to easy to repair, Eg: when i bought up the topic about Auchwitz and the allied bombing of a factory just 14 miles away they said it would be no use as the germans would repair it in a night, I would assume the japanese could do the same with some training,
But about being under constant air attack, I dont think so due to the fact Russia would have little or no air support to put there as they were busy with the Germans, And they way you have described the terrain i delt a T-34 would be able to be used in large numbers, maby only a few like 3 or 4, and i think the japanese dive bombers could deal with these,
So what im saying is by the time the Russians get the fighters they need and there forces and equiptment the war would be over, not by over running Russia but simply just by forcing them to surrender terms, I could see the Russians made to give up territory to the axis nations, decrease the size of the armed forces and be forced to trade with the axis, ie: send fuel and other materials to the axis nations, especially fuel to japan.
No war with america in '41.
Not like the japanese were advancing at a 100km a day, they might advance 8-10km a day, not much.

[Alex Coles]

when i bought up the topic about Auchwitz and the allied bombing of a factory just 14 miles away they said it would be no use as the germans would repair it in a night, I would assume the japanese could do the same with some training,

German pioneers are different. Now tell me, let us say they could repair it overnight who would train them?

But about being under constant air attack, I dont think so due to the fact Russia would have little or no air support to put there as they were busy with the Germans, And they way you have described the terrain i delt a T-34 would be able to be used in large numbers, maby only a few like 3 or 4, and i think the japanese dive bombers could deal with these,

I suppose you fail to realise that troops were kept in Vladivostok, an important harbour. The thing is, the Japanese wouldn't be able to devote aircraft to this front because they were fighting the US in an "island-hopping" kind of war, involving large naval based engagements, AND that forces were neccessary to keep the Chinese in check, AND that there was a neccessity for troops to remain in Burma.

So what im saying is by the time the Russians get the fighters they need and there forces and equiptment the war would be over, not by over running Russia but simply just by forcing them to surrender terms, I could see the Russians made to give up territory to the axis nations, decrease the size of the armed forces and be forced to trade with the axis, ie: send fuel and other materials to the axis nations, especially fuel to japan.
No war with america in '41.

The Russian WILL NOT and it would be illogical to if some of their eastern territory is lossed. The Urals are on the other side of the continent, and all the empty spaces of land are absolutely unimportant so it would hurt the Japanese more than help. BY THE WAY, after Khakin-Gol the Soviets would always have forces there, and the fact that the allies were distracting the Japanese a great deal means no air supposrt would be available. You need to think about fuel, supplies and equipment too. No army would have the fuel to go across the hard terrain of Eastern Russia, it is far to impassable. Anyway, Stalin wouldn't give peace to the axis! Hitler would refuse too. According to his Lebensraum policy the forces wern't to be friendly to the locals, and act as "liberators" but put them under tyranny, suppressing them a great deal. The Germans also would want to stop at nothing, but the removing of the USSR and that would also mean that an Eastern threat was eliminated. If peace was achieved, a great deal of dissent would go round in Russia, uprisings begin notably from the Cossacks which were well-trained with their horses and there would be ANOTHER russian revolution which would descend Russia into anarchy and all links with the axis removed.

[oleg]

which is what makes discussion of Japans air superiority moot anyway - they had it but it didnt benefit them, so woulodnt have been afactor in any offensive into Russia. The Japanese were great dive bombers yes, but not in the way the Germans were, using it as airborne artillery

phylo

why is it assumed that Japanese would have an air superiority to begin with? Khalkin-Gol certainly showed if indeed something like that existed it was not very well pronounced – Japanese Relive effort was halted by Soviet Air strikes which Japanese were not able to prevent or defend against in any meaningful way. Btw Soviet 1942 plan called for preventive strike against Japan if it became clear that they were going to attack - the same double pincer as in 1939 only on grander scale.

[phylo_roadking]

unless im mistaken, the Soviet idea of making a railway inoperative includes bending rails......ripping up and burning sleepers - which burn GREAT due to the impregnated preservatives - melting down shoes and ties on top of the hi-temp fires. The Japanese not only would have had to have brought railway engineers and rolling stock.....but also every item of raw material! they'd have been building the thing from stratch, the only thing they'd have been able to resuse was.....the thousands' of miles' long clearing through the forest! Try 8-10Km a WEEK......and Siberian summers are glorious - but SHORT....

phylo

[von_noobie]

17 SS Panzer Grenadier, How can you claim that if Russia was defeated that all links with the axis are removed, It didn't seem to happen in 1917, In my view they could be seen as there protector for removing the communists, The only peaple they would hate with a passion would be the japanese.

And 17 SS Panzer Grenadier, if you read carefully i am talking about before December 7th 1941, more like mid/late October. So they arent at war with america yet, so they still have all there air craft.

And 17 SS Panzer Grenadier, the Russian force at Vladivostok is no real threat, What would they do, Have a few victorys but no much, The japanese could simply roll up with there navy and bomb away at the port and city along with the japanese dive bombers and bombers, The Russian front would eventually break and soon artillary would be in range, all they need to do is cut there land supply and literally no supply except from the air which would be minumal.

Yes i know minimal ground would be taken but i still know that Stalin feared a two front war and beleived he could not fight on two fronts as did many other countrys, His fear would drive him to the peace table.

Just my 2 cents...

[Alex Coles]

17 SS Panzer Grenadier, How can you claim that if Russia was defeated that all links with the axis are removed, It didn't seem to happen in 1917, In my view they could be seen as there protector for removing the communists, The only peaple they would hate with a passion would be the japanese.

Well, all links with Germany were cancelled anyway, at the end of the war (WWI) so you can't really say anything about that.

And 17 SS Panzer Grenadier, if you read carefully i am talking about before December 7th 1941, more like mid/late October. So they arent at war with america yet, so they still have all there air craft.

Yes, but what is stopping Japan from bombing Pearl Harbour? If they are going to do it anyway, then that makes that message useless too.

And 17 SS Panzer Grenadier, the Russian force at Vladivostok is no real threat, What would they do, Have a few victorys but no much, The japanese could simply roll up with there navy and bomb away at the port and city along with the japanese dive bombers and bombers, The Russian front would eventually break and soon artillary would be in range, all they need to do is cut there land supply and literally no supply except from the air which would be minumal.

The Japanese Navy will be useless, becaus the U.S.S.R didn't focus on their navy, hey they scuttled their fleets in Sevastopol when it fell! You see, bombarding/bombing the port of Vladivostok will be illogical, because even though it tears down buildings it is a defenders' wonderland because anything can become a strongpoint. Also, it wouldn't be as easy as that, because the Russians were weary of the Japanese after the Khakin-Gol incident so it would be obvious they would position troops on the Manchurian border, and in Mongolia. Now, about cutting off supplies. If you think it is so easy, then what about the Leningrad siege? They lasted for 3 whole years, and if Vladivostok is a pacific port where the majority of the allied fleets are positioned (in the pacific) then they could always break through into the city and resupply it.

I feel that you can't take being outsmarted by an 11 year old.

[von_noobie]

OK.....If i am planning to invade Russia i would automatically call off all plans against the allies. There aircraft being deployed against russia is stopping Pearl Harbour being bombed.

supply by sea for Vladivostok would be hopeless, Yes a few ships could get through but what navy did the Russians have, All there ships were of ww1 classes. They had nothing to compete with the Japanese navy.

And the seige of Leningrad was a major German blunder, Becouse the Russians still had a supply line, The ice road in the winter. not to mention most of the pop was evacuated so they only had to feed the soilders and the few pop left there.

And yes bombing Vladivostok into rubble would be a major blunder on my part but i didnt mean it that way, i guess i worded it wrong. I would use recon planes to give direct fire support to the troops on the ground, When they run into trouble i would blast it away.

And please tell me what allied fleets were positioned in or around Vladivostok, becouse i would really like to know if there is so many of them.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I would suggest that it might prove disadvantageous to attack the USSR instead of the USA in December 1941.

Firstly, Japanese ground and sea operations would probably have been largely paralysed by the winter, so the Red Army would have had months to prepare.

Secondly, the Red Army had already proved itself capable of facing the Japanese on at least equal terms in high summer during the Monoman incident, and its advantage in winter might well have been even greater.

Thirdly, war with the USSR would probably have aggravated Japan's existing problems in importing raw materials, because the UK and the Netherlands were already allies of the USSR against Germany.

Fourthly, if Japan decided to resolve this issue by attacking Malaya and the Dutch East Indies it would almost certainly have brought the USA into the war.

Fifthly, if the USA entered the war without its Pacific fleet having been neutralised at Pearl Harbour, the Japanese would have been less able to occupy much of the Pacific and south-east Asia and their home islands might well have come under earlier sustained attack.

I think Pearl Harbour was the right first move, but should have been followed up by immediate invasion. The Hawaian Islands in Japanese hands (the proverbial "unsinkable aircraft carries") would have allowed the Japanese fleet to dominate the central Pacific and threaten the Panama Canal, delaying by years any American build-up and riposte and providing a shield behind which other operations, such as attacks on the USSR or India, might have been mounted.

Of course, none of this would delay the development of the A-bomb.........

Cheers,

Sid.

[von_noobie]

Sid, While i do agree with your veiw i dont think a force could hold the hawain islands for very long, The most i could see them being able to do is completely do a scorched earth policy, Destroy every thing, re-float all possible ships and transport them back to Japan and make the islands un usable for many years.

And yes i guess no advances would be able to be made by the japanese but neither would the Russians, with japanese dive bombers bombing the roads and rail tracks and fighters keeping off supply air craft and the navy keeping off sea supply they pretty much just sit there.

There wouldnt be much hope of T-34's or KV-1's or any fighters for that matter as they were all needed against the germans. i beleive the japanese could keep this up for 3-4 months.

Enought time for german forces to regroup and take moscow.

[Darrin]

The japs after the oil embargo needed oil. Somthing the east end of rus did not have. The oil could be found in the dutch east indies and british pos in that area. The US had no important res jap could get so a fall/winter 41 att on the US had no use for the japs.

Instead of invading and garrisoning the south pacific jap could have fielded a million+ man army to inv rus in 42. The prob with a 41 att was that ger thought rus would crumble by 41 but by 42 ger was looking for help eveywhere.

Part of the prob with this scen is jap had a non agression pact with rus and I don't really see them breaking it. Instead of att the US in 41 they should have conc on finishing off china.