I would say that the loss of Norway to the German forces could count. You could also count in Greece as well. As allied forces where brought into support locals against German forces. Perhaps this is a bit early as the area was not controlled by Axis forces at the time of the support going in Greece.
My other though on this matter is the Soviet para units which attemped to cause a bridgehead in 1943 at Kanev.
Bye for Now
Did Germans defeat any sea invasion or major river crossing?
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sid guttridge
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Hi Thaxone,
Although the Germans defeated the Soviet paratroop drop over the Dneipr, they did so before it was established as an air head or joined up with a Soviet bridgehead over the river. Furthermore, it was only part of a wider operation in which the Germans failed to eliminate any of the major bridgeheads the Red Army established across the river.
I am not fully up to speed on Norway, but was not the Allied force withdrawn because of the catastrophic defeat in France?
Although the Germans defeated the Soviet paratroop drop over the Dneipr, they did so before it was established as an air head or joined up with a Soviet bridgehead over the river. Furthermore, it was only part of a wider operation in which the Germans failed to eliminate any of the major bridgeheads the Red Army established across the river.
I am not fully up to speed on Norway, but was not the Allied force withdrawn because of the catastrophic defeat in France?
You could say that Norway was a retreat by the allies, so that they where not defeated? Well, if you went into support an action and then had to leave the area to the other fellow then surely he won.
Kanev was an attemped air bridge head from my point of view, yes I know the germans failed else where to push back the soviet forces so was it just a ploy or a serious attempt that the Germans destroyed? Someone some where had thought that it was going to be a useful effort but to what end?
Hey thats fine it is a matter of option for those of us who sit back and decide what was the best way of doing things after the event. Damn sure that I would not have liked to have been in anyones front line trying to decide if I was the small blocking force needed to hold the line while my general was deciding if I was going to survive.
Bye for Now
Kanev was an attemped air bridge head from my point of view, yes I know the germans failed else where to push back the soviet forces so was it just a ploy or a serious attempt that the Germans destroyed? Someone some where had thought that it was going to be a useful effort but to what end?
Hey thats fine it is a matter of option for those of us who sit back and decide what was the best way of doing things after the event. Damn sure that I would not have liked to have been in anyones front line trying to decide if I was the small blocking force needed to hold the line while my general was deciding if I was going to survive.
Bye for Now
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sid guttridge
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The point is that the Allied lodgement in Norway was not defeated by local German action, but by wider strategic considerations. It is therefore not eligible under the terms I originally set out.
The same is true of airheads. My original question related to seaborne beacheads and bridgeheads over major rivers, because those were the terms in which this proposition was first put to me. I was probably being unecessarily charitable in conceding the Arnhem action as eligible. I did so because the airborne bridgehead was briefly reinforced by a small number of men from south of the river. The Russian air head over the Dnepr seems to never have joined up with the main front in a similar way before being eliminated.
The only example that so far seems still open for debate is Cheshire Yeomanry's defeat of the Red Army's Mius crossing in 1943. I have since found a reference to the elimination of a Red Army bridgehead over the Mius in a German book, so all that remains to decide is whether the Mius was a "major" river. It looks a bit weedy compared to its neighbours the Don and Dnepr.
The same is true of airheads. My original question related to seaborne beacheads and bridgeheads over major rivers, because those were the terms in which this proposition was first put to me. I was probably being unecessarily charitable in conceding the Arnhem action as eligible. I did so because the airborne bridgehead was briefly reinforced by a small number of men from south of the river. The Russian air head over the Dnepr seems to never have joined up with the main front in a similar way before being eliminated.
The only example that so far seems still open for debate is Cheshire Yeomanry's defeat of the Red Army's Mius crossing in 1943. I have since found a reference to the elimination of a Red Army bridgehead over the Mius in a German book, so all that remains to decide is whether the Mius was a "major" river. It looks a bit weedy compared to its neighbours the Don and Dnepr.
I can only think of a few and am unsure if they qualify.
The Donets River in May-June of 1942 and in December 1942. Along the Oskol and Donets Rivers between Kupyansk and Volchansk in June of 1942. The Donets again around Kharkov in February and March of 1943.
The Chir River and area in November and December 1942. The Mius river in August of 1943, the Merla and Merchik in the Bogodukhov area in August as well. As well, I believe Patton's Third Army was unsuccesfull in their first attempts to cross the Moselle River in the area around Metz and Nancy in the Autumn of 1944.
These were all rather different operations and are not the bridgeheads or invasions that you are referring to. Some were large operations and some were minor. But they are good examples of river crossing attempts that failed or of bridgheads or potential bridgheads that were defeated.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
The Donets River in May-June of 1942 and in December 1942. Along the Oskol and Donets Rivers between Kupyansk and Volchansk in June of 1942. The Donets again around Kharkov in February and March of 1943.
The Chir River and area in November and December 1942. The Mius river in August of 1943, the Merla and Merchik in the Bogodukhov area in August as well. As well, I believe Patton's Third Army was unsuccesfull in their first attempts to cross the Moselle River in the area around Metz and Nancy in the Autumn of 1944.
These were all rather different operations and are not the bridgeheads or invasions that you are referring to. Some were large operations and some were minor. But they are good examples of river crossing attempts that failed or of bridgheads or potential bridgheads that were defeated.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
I just thought of two more that are pretty good examples. The defeat of the Baranov and Koshenice bridgeheads in August of 1944 and the defeat of the Gran bridgehead in February of 1945.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
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sid guttridge
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Gareth Collins
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If I remember correctly , Romanians and Germans had to wipe out Soviet bridgeheads over Prut and Dnestr rivers in the begging of the Barbarossa Operation . It seems that Soviets , while being in retreat, have almost always kept a bridgehead after their full retreat .
There were a lot of Soviet landings in Kerchi and Taman Peninsula which were eliminated by Romanians and Germans ...
Remember the bridgeheads kept by Soviets on Don River . Those bridgeheads Romanians wanted to eliminate but German HQ has never agreed …. You remember what was next .
There were a lot of Soviet landings in Kerchi and Taman Peninsula which were eliminated by Romanians and Germans ...
Remember the bridgeheads kept by Soviets on Don River . Those bridgeheads Romanians wanted to eliminate but German HQ has never agreed …. You remember what was next .
BI
Hello!
Just thought that I would bring this old thread back. I am just wondering, Sid, if you have had a chance to review the choices that I mentioned and if they were indeed what you were looking for. Here is a modified "copy and paste" of my posts:
-The Donets River in May-June of 1942 and in December 1942. Along the Oskol and Donets Rivers between Kupyansk and Volchansk in June of 1942. The Donets again around Kharkov in February and March of 1943.
-The Chir River and area in November and December 1942. The Mius River in August of 1943, the Merla and Merchik in the Bogodukhov area in August 1943 as well. As well, I believe Patton's Third Army was unsuccesfull in their first attempts to cross the Moselle River in the area around Metz and Nancy in the Autumn of 1944.
-The defeat of the Baranov and Koshenice bridgeheads in August of 1944 and the defeat of the Gran bridgehead in February of 1945.
These were all rather different operations and are not the major bridgeheads or major invasions that you are referring to. Some were large operations and some were minor. But they are good examples of river crossing attempts that failed or of bridgeheads or potential bridgeheads that were defeated.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Just thought that I would bring this old thread back. I am just wondering, Sid, if you have had a chance to review the choices that I mentioned and if they were indeed what you were looking for. Here is a modified "copy and paste" of my posts:
-The Donets River in May-June of 1942 and in December 1942. Along the Oskol and Donets Rivers between Kupyansk and Volchansk in June of 1942. The Donets again around Kharkov in February and March of 1943.
-The Chir River and area in November and December 1942. The Mius River in August of 1943, the Merla and Merchik in the Bogodukhov area in August 1943 as well. As well, I believe Patton's Third Army was unsuccesfull in their first attempts to cross the Moselle River in the area around Metz and Nancy in the Autumn of 1944.
-The defeat of the Baranov and Koshenice bridgeheads in August of 1944 and the defeat of the Gran bridgehead in February of 1945.
These were all rather different operations and are not the major bridgeheads or major invasions that you are referring to. Some were large operations and some were minor. But they are good examples of river crossing attempts that failed or of bridgeheads or potential bridgeheads that were defeated.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
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sid guttridge
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Y'know, thinking about the defeat of the American 36th Division by the 15th Panzergrenadier Division at the Rapido River, I'd have to say that to the soldiers on both sides, it was a major river crossing.
You've undoubtedly seen the Joe&Willie cartoon by Bill Mauldin, where Willie says to Joe, "The hell this ain't the most important foxhole in the world. I'm in it." In other words, maybe Italy faded to insignificance in other folks' eyes after the taking of Rome and the D-Day invasion, but to those who were there, it was anything but a minor theater of war.
And so, to those involved, the Rapido was a major affair.
Yours,
Paul
You've undoubtedly seen the Joe&Willie cartoon by Bill Mauldin, where Willie says to Joe, "The hell this ain't the most important foxhole in the world. I'm in it." In other words, maybe Italy faded to insignificance in other folks' eyes after the taking of Rome and the D-Day invasion, but to those who were there, it was anything but a minor theater of war.
And so, to those involved, the Rapido was a major affair.
Yours,
Paul
Hello Sid!
No problems and no worries! I just thought that I would bring this old thread back and see if anything can be added, I always found it interesting. If you need some information on any of these battles let me know and I will see if I can dig some information up.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
No problems and no worries! I just thought that I would bring this old thread back and see if anything can be added, I always found it interesting. If you need some information on any of these battles let me know and I will see if I can dig some information up.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!