largest European pockets of WWII

[JeffF.]

4444,

Do you have any information on the Germans that were holding out in the Atlantic and Channel ports that existed up until the end of the war? I'm looking for the composition or Order of Battle, which units were holding out, including battlegroups composed of Navy and Luftwaffe personnel.
thanks,
Jeff

[4444]

4444,

Do you have any information on the Germans that were holding out in the Atlantic and Channel ports that existed up until the end of the war? I'm looking for the composition or Order of Battle, which units were holding out, including battlegroups composed of Navy and Luftwaffe personnel.
thanks,
Jeff

sorry, have never researched this topic.

[4444]

This number of soldiers is wrong. Polish "army" in 1939 had 3-4 inf divisions, and 1 cavalary brigade

Not true, I am afraid. Composition of particular Polish armies differed widely, the smallest one of them consisting of just 2 brigades, and the largest one of 6 divisions + 2 brigades.

This is no more than 60 000 soldiers

Questionable, again. Even given your theoretical composition (3to4+1), an army would be 70.000 – 90.000 people. An infantry division was 17.500, a cavalry brigade was 10.000, plus you have to count in the army units, plus National Defence units.

In the same time 10th German Army had 3 inf divisions (18, 19 and 31),
2 panzer divisions(1st and 4th), 2 light divisions and 1 motorized division

Not correct, I believe. The 10. Army consisted of: 6 Infantry Divisions (18, 19, 14, 31, 46, 4), 2 Pz Divisions (1, 4), 3 Light Divisions (3, 1, 2) and 2 Motorised Divisions (13, 29), 13 divs in total. Source for this and Polish line-up quoted: Steven J. Zaloga.

In Polish army 1939 was no something like corps in wehrmacht

I am not sure I follow, but I believe “Operational Groups”, which were made up of 2 divisions, were comparable to the Wehrmacht corps (2 divs as well)

So in sept. 1st 1939 army "Poznan" and "Pomorze" had about 120 - 130.000 soldiers (8 inf div+2 cavalary brigades + 18 national defence batailions - something like volksturm - no more than 10 000 people to defend cities like Poznan, Bydgoszcz or Torun). 250 000?

Wrong. The two armies consisted of 9 infantry divisions (9, 15, 27, 4, 16 + 14, 17, 25, 26) and 3 cavalry brigades (Pomrska + Wieklopolska, Podolska), plus army units, plus BON. During the first few days new units were added (e.g. 13. DP was deployed in the “Pomorze” army sector). In fact, the two were the strongest of all armies Poland fielded in 1939. Your numbers can be also proven wrong from another end. If the two armies in question were just 130.000, and all troops Poland fielded were 1.1m (as you say below), where on Earth the remaining 970.000 would be, given the Polish forces of Sep 1, 1939 were organised in just 7 armies in total?

In south-eastern Poland was sept. 17tn about 200 000 soldiers, including marshall Smigly-Rydz. The number was larger than in Warsaw but i don't think it was organised army but many separated units from division to batailion without comunication or comanders. Most of them crossed Rumunian and Hungarian border 18th-20th september.

Overstated, possibly even doubled. Some 70.000 made it to Hungary and Romania. You rightly say that most of the troops at the “Romanian Bridgehead” managed to escape the Soviet advance, maybe some 20.000 – 30.000 failed to do so. My bet for the Romanian Bridgehead is some 100.000.

So from 1.1 mio army, 400 000 was captured by Germans, 200 000 Russians, 200 000 KIA or WIA, rest crosed borders, or goes to underground. The real numbers are not possible to find.

Yes, when talking ballpark figures, these are the numbers I recognise. The number of these who left the country is ca 80.000, which means that some 0.2m soldiers have avoided the POW fate (Nazi or Soviet captivity) and made it home.

[Walter Godinho]

Dear 4444:
For your info: At Lorient, on May 10th., counting only members of the "Kriegsmarine", the number of troops that surrendered on that day, comprised 420 Officers and equivalent grades, 1,760 Sub-officers and 13,300 troops. Take care. Walter.

[4444]

Dear 4444:
For your info: At Lorient, on May 10th., counting only members of the "Kriegsmarine", the number of troops that surrendered on that day, comprised 420 Officers and equivalent grades, 1,760 Sub-officers and 13,300 troops. Take care. Walter.

many thanks, this is more than I thought. I admit being pretty ignorant on the topic, with the only thing I am confident of that none of the Atlantic pockets qualifies among the "largest".

[Walter Godinho]

Dear Jeff: Lorient, May 10, 1945. German prisioners made on this day in Lorient and surrounding islands: from Kriegsmarine only, 420 Officers and equivalent ranks, 1760 Sub-Officers and 13,300 men.

[Peter]

The netherlands.... a pocket ? Please explane!

[4444]

The netherlands.... a pocket ? Please explane!

hope the below is sufficient?

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ng+holland

[ericv]

- XXIII Armeekorps with 102, 206, 253 Inf Div and SS Kav Brigade was encircled end 1941-beginning 1942

- I Armeekorps was encircled in the same time (according to memory, can't find the source however.. Please correct me if I am wrong)

- The german forces on Crete and the other Isles in the region were also cut off late 1944/1945

- Cholm and Welikije Luki were in Size not that great, but are among the more famous

- Oranienbaum Kessel

Don't know the exact numbers of encircled men though..

[4444]

- XXIII Armeekorps...

so, you have me booked for the next few days...

Just to make my search shorter, which Oranienbaum Kessel do you mean? I started with www search engines, and found references to two:

13.10.-30.11.1941 Abwehrkämpfe vor Leningrad und am Oranienbaumer Kessel. Abwehrkämpfe an der Newa Einschließungsfront und am Brückenkopf Wyborgskaja - http://www.id227.de/kriegseinsaetze/kri ... ze1941.htm

and:

Die Division wurde am 12. Februar 1944 nach ihrer Vernichtung im Kessel von Oranienbaum aufgelöst,die Reste der 61., 225. und 227. Infanterie-Division zugeteilt - http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 9FDL-R.htm

[sid guttridge]

Hi JeffF,

From memory, I think that the six(?) German coastal pockets left behind the lines in France in late 1944 totalled about 75,000 men (possibly including Brest). To these must be added the garrison of the Channel Islands, which at one time totalled about 40,000 men.

Cheers,

Sid.

[ericv]

4444:

I mean the German encirclement of Soviet forces(wasn't even aware of the other one you mention). In 1941 the Oranienbaum kessel with soviet forces in it was closed (Air and Sea supply available however.) Out of memory i think it lasted until 1943/1944..

regards

ericv

[4444]

I mean the German encirclement of Soviet forces(wasn't even aware of the other one you mention). In 1941 the Oranienbaum kessel with soviet forces in it was closed (Air and Sea supply available however.) Out of memory i think it lasted until 1943/1944

ah, this is what you mean. I think I have it listed as no 14

[ericv]

Oh ok!

They can certainly be considered the same encirclement although there was no air superiority over the sea connecting them..

I am quite suprised however about the number of 0.2m you mention. If I recall correctly (from memory) there were 0.15m men in the orianenbaum kessel at one time or the other..
Without a doubt in leningrad there were at least (if not much more!! than) 0.2m soldiers..

That was the reason I mentioned the Oranienbaum kessel in my previous post.. I'll start digging in some books hoping to get some number of russian soldiers trapped in Leningrad/Oranienbaum combined.. Wouldn't be surprised if it reached 0.5m or something like that..
best regards

eric

[4444]

I am quite suprised however about the number of 0.2m you mention

you are right, this is nothing but my bet. I failed to find either in my books or in www what the wise people say. Actually, this is why I posted the whole list on this forum: hoping some of you know particular episodes well and can help me with corrections.

NB: Leningrad poses a particular problem: who is a soldier and who is not? Of course, the navy men are excluded by definition. But actually, almost all 16-60 males in the besieged city served in one formation or another. And why exclude females, serving in the anti-aircraft crew?