Forgotten Artillerie - The Official Werfer-Artillerie Thread

[Klaus_Arzt]

Do anyone knows, which units used the Panzerjäger Bren and where they saw combat?

Hello Rui Esteves! Here's some info i found in the web - Panzerjäger Bren vehicles were used in 3. Panzergrenadier Division. and answering your second question - their areas of engagement: France (Mar 1943 - June 1943),Italy (June 1943 - Aug 1944),France (Aug 1944 - Nov 1944),Western Germany (Nov 1944 - Dec 1944),Ardennes, Germany & Ruhr pocket (Dec 1944 - Apr 1945).

Best regards

[Klaus_Arzt]

speaking of Panzerschrecks, a good example of their transportation

panzerschreck.jpg (18.21 KiB) Viewed 12377 times

If all Panzerschrecks had been placed in one direction i would have thought it was some kind of Ersatzrocketluncher, that could be lethal not only for the enemies but also for the crew operating it.

[Klaus_Arzt]

28 Wurfrahmen (Sf) based on the Renault UE and 28 Wurfrahmen (Sf) based on the Hotchkiss H39:

H39 0001.jpg (172.28 KiB) Viewed 12665 times

H39 0002.jpg (155.83 KiB) Viewed 12659 times

All the best

[afrika.90light]

While the 4 Panzer Div. didn't have any Panzerwerfers, any chance or records of them supporting the 4th. I play the 4th in Flames of War and would love to play them if realistic. I could just play them legally but like to play my units historically. Would prefer to model a panzerwerfer unit that was really there. Thanks in advance.
Happy Trails
William

[Rui Esteves]

These prevoius photos, appears on Werner Regenberg & Horst Scheibert, Captured French Tanks under the German Flag, Schiffer Publishing.
They are 28/32 cm Wurfrahmen (Sf) auf PzKpfw 39H (f) / auf Infanterie-Schlepper UE (f), based on the Hotchkiss H39 / Renault UE.

And according to Regenberg / Scheibert, the Panzer Abteilung 205 were equipped with 11 Hotchkiss H39 tanks with the 4-launcher frames of 28/32 cm rockets.


Best regards,

Rui Esteves

[Rui Esteves]

According to Zetterling "Normandy 1944", there were Panzerwerfers in the following units at Normandy in 1944:

Werfer Brigade 7
I./Werfer-Regiment 84, had 7 Panzerwerfer
II./Werfer-Regiment 84, had 7 Panzerwerfer plus 1 Panzerwerfer in workshops.

Werfer Brigade 8
Werfer-Lehr-Regiment 1, had 2 Panzerwerfer batteries
schweres Werfer-Regiment 2, had 1 Panzerwerfer battery

Werfer Brigade 9
Werfer-Regiment 14, had 1 Panzerwerfer battery
Werfer-Regiment 54, had 1 Panzerwerfer battery and 1 additional battery with self-propelled, but non-armored Werfers
( probably the "non-armored self-propelled Werfers" were (Pz.) batteries redesignated as (Sf.) batteries )


(the edit, correct some typos)


Best regards,

Rui Esteves

[Rui Esteves]

The 15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 batteries used the K.St.N. 633.

K.St.N. 633 - Wfr. Battr. (Sfl) 15cm Nbl.W. - 01.10.44
1.Zug with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1))
2.Zug with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1))
Munitionsstaffel with 4 x Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen 3t, gp. (Sd.Kfz.4/1)


Best regards,

Rui Esteves

[Rui Esteves]

According to Dr. Leo Niehorster, there was 3 K.St.N. that had the 15cm Panzerwerfer 42:

K.St.N. 633 - Battr. 15 cm Pz. Wrf. 42 - 15.02.43 (Behelf)
K.St.N. 633 - Battr. 15 cm Pz. Wrf. 42 - 01.11.43
K.St.N. 633 - Wfr. Battr. (Sfl) 15cm Nbl.W. - 01.10.44


Best regards,

Rui Esteves

[afrika.90light]

Hi Rui,
Thank You for your response. I forget what something means,K.ST.N. So if I'm reading this correctly, in 44 this unit had 4 self propelled launchers each in 2 squads and 4 munition haulers. Any idea how these would have been numbered? I've seen some with letters. As I model and paint this, unit any suggestions for the paint job ie. camo and other fine points. How about uniforms?
Thanks again.
William

[Rui Esteves]

Hi William,

the K.St.N. or Kriegsstärkenachweisung is a theoretical organization of a unit, in men and equipment, each kind of unit had his specific K.St.N. In this document, is shown the number and the type of weapons, vehicles, trailers, horses, men, etc, inside the unit. During the war, some K.St.N. were modified, in his composition and new ones were created with the appearance of new weapons.

The 15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 batteries used the K.St.N. 633.

K.St.N. 633 - Wfr. Battr. (Sfl) 15cm Nbl.W. - 01.10.44 (K.St.N. number - Name of K.St.N. - Official issue date)
1.Zug with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1))
2.Zug with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1))
Munitionsstaffel with 4 x Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen 3t, gp. (Sd.Kfz.4/1)

The K.St.N. 633 explained:
1st Platoon with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1)) - Rocket Launchers
2nd Platoon with 4 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (15cm Nebelwerfer-Zehnling 42 auf Panzerwerfer (Sd.Kfz. 4/1)) - Rocket Launchers
Ammunition squadron with 4 x Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen 3t, gp. (Sd.Kfz.4/1) - Ammunition armored 3-ton half-track trucks

Total in each 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 battery = 8 x 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 and 4 x Gleisketten-Lastkraftwagen 3t, gp..


These batteries were part of the Werfer-Regiments, the batteries were formed starting at 1943 and some Regiments at the beginning had 1 or 2 batteries, later Werfer-Brigades were formed with 2 regiments. AFAIK, 15-cm Panzerwerfer 42 rocket launchers, were only in the Heer (Army), the Waffen-SS had his own self-propelled rocket launcher, the 8 cm Raketen Vielfachwerfer auf Fahrgestell Maultier, based on the Opel Maultier.


For example, the Werfer-Regiment 54, in May 5, 1943, the 21. (Pz.) and 22. (Pz.) Batteries were attached, according to Niehorster the Werfer-Regiment 54 had in July 4, 43, I., II. and, III. Abteilungen with three batteries of 15cm rockets each; 21. and 22. Batterien equipped with self-propelled 15cm rocket launchers. {The second digit of the (Pz.) Batterie, shows to which battalion (Abteilung) it belonged inside the regiment). In March 1944 21. (Pz.) and 22. (Pz.) were redesignated 21. (Sf.) and 22. (Sf.) Batterie].

So far, I only saw 15cm Panzerwerfers with a letter marking in his armored body, identifying the position of the vehicle inside the battery, A (1st vehicle), B (2nd vehicle), C (3rd vehicle), D (4th vehicle). Unfortunately, I can't help in the matter of the camouflage or the painting in the vehicles (this isn't my strong area ). The Werfer soldiers, I suppose, had artillery uniforms.



Best regards,

Rui Esteves

[Martin Block]

If I'm allowed to add a small remark here regarding the just mentioned Werfer-Rgt. 54:
Things were a bit more complicated. Although authorized to have 2 Pz.Werfer-Batteries since early April 1943 these were not actually present with the regiment in July 1943. In the end only one actually joined the regiment at the end of September 1943:

Formation of 21. and 22.(Pz.)/Werfer-Regiment 54 ordered 3.4.1943
Combat readiness for both batteries was to be achieved until 15.6.1943
This was delayed because of production shortages and a new date was set to 15.8.1943 at the earliest
On 28.8.1943 the combat ready 22./54 was renamed to 21.(Pz.)/Wf.Rgt. 71
21./54 finally reported combat readiness on 23.9.1943 and received orders to join Werfer-Rgt. 54.
Orders to form a new 22./54 and additionally a 23./54 until 31.1.1944 were issued on 13.12.1943.
But on 14.1.1944 the 22./54 was assigned to Werfer-Rgt. 82 and renamed to 21./82 or 22./82 (couldn't find out exactly).
On the same day the order to form the 23./54 was cancelled.

Martin Block

[afrika.90light]

Hi Rui,
First thanks to all.
So I will be modeling K.ST.N. 633. In the game I'm allowed 2 sec' s of 4 launchers each, so that fits great. I also get a hauptmann HQ section with kfz 15 field car and a anti tank sec of either PaK 38 or PaK 40 and Sd Kfz 11. The observer teams get kubelwagons. Does this fit. I assume, in essence, the munition carriers are panzerwerfers without launchers.
Thanks again.
William

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a little complement........................................

15 cm Nebelwerfer 41.

Battery fire !!! .................

Source: https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlerobje ... 54737.html

Cheers. Raul M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more.......................................

Battery fire !!!

Source: https://www.ebay.de/itm/11-Panzer-Divis ... 0013.m1986

Cheers. Raul M .

[Kelvin]

Operation Barbarossa, showed the Germans the major use of mobile rocket platforms, from that, the Germans started to use captured French chassis with captured French/Soviet weapons in different kinds of rocket artillery. After that, it starts using the German equipment.

It will be interesting to know the production/delivery stats, unit assignments. And also the strengths and losses of this kind of vehicles. (Mainly in the major battles, such, Kharkov, Zitadelle, Normandy, Ardennes)

With my researches, i found this out:

> Multiple rocket launchers
(Panzerwerfer 42 - 15 cm Nebelwerfer 41 rockets)
15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 (Sf) auf Sd.Kfz.4/1, based on the Opel Maultier
15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 (Sf) auf schwerer Wehrmachtsschlepper, based on the sWS
15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 (Sf) auf m.gep Zgkw. S303 (f), based on the Somua MCL
15 cm Panzerwerfer 42 (Sf) auf m.gep Zgkw. Somua S307 (f), based on the Somua MCG

(Vielfachwerfer - Soviet 8 cm BM-8 rockets)
8 cm Vielfachwerfer auf m.gep.Zgkw. Somua S303 (f), based on the Somua MCL
8 cm Vielfachwerfer auf m.gep.Zgkw. Somua S307 (f), based on the Somua MCG
8 cm Vielfachwerfer auf m.gep.Zgkw. U305(f), based on the Unic TU1


> Multiple rocket projector launchers
(Wurfrahmen - 28 cm/32 cm Wurfkoerper rockets)
Sd.Kfz. 251/1 mit Wurfrahmen 40
28/32 cm Wurfrahmen (Sf) auf Infanterie-Schlepper UE (f), based on the Renault UE
28/32 cm Wurfrahmen (Sf) auf PzKpfw 35H (f), based on the Hotchkiss H35
28/32 cm Wurfrahmen (Sf) auf PzKpfw 38H (f), based on the Hotchkiss H38
28/32 cm Wurfrahmen (Sf) auf PzKpfw 39H (f), based on the Hotchkiss H39


> Tiered mortar launchers
(Reihenwerfer - French 8 cm Brandt mortars)
8 cm Reihenwerfer auf m.gep.Zgkw. Somua S303 (f), based on the Somua MCL
8 cm Reihenwerfer auf m.gep.Zgkw. Somua S307 (f), based on the Somua MCG

(Granatwerfer – 8 cm GrW34 mortar)
Sd.Kfz. 250/7 leichter Granatwerferwagen
Sd.Kfz. 251/2 mittlerer Granatwerferwagen
8 cm Granatwerfer auf leSPW U304 (f), based on the Unic-Kégresse P107
8 cm Granatwerfer auf PzKpfw 35R 731 (f), based on the Renault R35 and R40
8 cm Granatwerfer auf PzKpfw 38H 735 (f), based on the Hotchkiss H38
8 cm Granatwerfer auf Panzerspähwagen AMR35 (f), based on the AMR-35


> Multiple anti-tank rockets launchers
(Raketenpanzerbusche – 8.8 cm RPzB 43/54)
8.8 cm Panzerjäger Borgward B IVc Ausführung mit Raketenpanzerbüchse 54, based on the Borgward B IV
8.8 cm Panzerjäger Bren 731 (e), based on the Universal Bren Gun Carrier
8.8 cm Panzerjäger Bren 732 (e), based on the Universal Scout Carrier
Sd.Kfz. 251 (8.8 cm RPzB 43/54)
Volkswagen Kübelwagen (8.8 cm RPzB 43/54)


I know also, that the Vielfachwerfers were mainly used by Waffen-SS, the Granatwerfers were used by the Panzergrenadiers, the Wurfrahmens were mostly employed by the Panzer-Pioneres and Panzer-Zerstörergruppen used the 8.8 cm Panzerjäger Bren 731/732 (e).


Rui Esteves

Hi, Rui, what 's mean Raketenpanzerbuchse 54 on sdkfz 251 ? Any photo and mean it like a small panzerjager ? thx

Kelvin