Forgotten AFVs--The Official Sd. Kfz. 250/9 Thread!

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Forgotten AFVs--The Official Sd. Kfz. 250/9 Thread!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:24 pm

IMHO, The Sd. Kfz. 250/9 has been fairly well ignored as a reconnaissance vehicle, having none of the glamor of the Sd. Kfz. 222 or the 234/2 Puma.

So, I'm starting this thread to collect data on the vehicle, including user accounts, anecdotes, production and delivery statistics and information on the little half-track's unit assignments.

This vehicle seems to have born, for many years and especially on the Ostfront, the brunt of reconnaissance activities for several Panzer divisions and it is time to bring its service into perspective and documentation--again in my humble opinion. So, please feel free to post on it and any other version of the 250 series that served in the Aufklarungs Abts. on the Ostfront!

Very best,
~D, the EviL

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Post by Martin Block » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:48 pm

Nice idea David and a golden opportunity for me to do something for the reputation again :wink: :wink: :wink:

According to T.L. Jentz in Panzer-Tracts 11-2 the first 3 Sd.Kfz. 250/9 were sent to the Eastern Front by 1 July 1942. Mass production was planned to commence in mid July at a rate of 30 per month. He doesn't go into any details but something must have gone wrong since only a total of at least 310 had been accepted by the Heereswaffenamt by the end of 1943! 318 folowed in 1944 and 109 in 1945.

Unfortunatelythere is no allocation data available for 1942 and so I was not able to establish who actually received the Sd.Kfz. 250/9 first (my guess 1. and/or 2. Pz.Div.) but I do have pretty good coverage for 1943 - 1945 compiled from from units monthly status reports, le.SPW allocation files and Org.Abt. organizational files.

Hope I didn't leave out any units and didn't include too many mistakes in what is written below, but I had to go through a considerable amount of paperwork for this. When I talk about 'vehicles delivered' I mean the full equipment fo a Pz.Späh-Kp. c in accordance with K.St.N. 1162 c, i.e. 16 Sd.Kfz. 250/9 and 9 Sd.Kfz. 250/5 (often replaced by Sd.Kfz. 250/3).
Note that in many cases considerable time passed between authorization and actual deliveries.

Pz.A.A. 1 (1. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered before May 1943.
Pz.A.A. 2 (2. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Mar 1943, vehicles delivered a) before May 1943 and b) during refit in April 1944.
Pz.A.A. 3 (3. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943 but not carried out, used the Aufkl.Pz. 38 (Sd.Kfz. 140/1) instead.
Pz.A.A. 4 (4. Pz.Div.) used the Pz.Späh-Wg. II 'Luchs' (Sd.Kfz. 123) until the end of the war. In May 1944 a Pz.Späh-Kp. c was authorized in case the 'Luchs' would be used up. Sd.Kfz. 250/9 delivered in Febuary 1945, additional ones probably taken over from Pz.A.A. München in March 1945.
Pz.A.A. 5 (5. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Apr/May 1944
Pz.A.A. 6 (6. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Oct/Nov 1943
Pz.A.A. 7 (7. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Nov/Dec 1943
Pz.A.A. 8 (8. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Aug/Sep 1944
Pz.A.A. 9 (9. Pz.Div.) no Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, used the Pz.Späh-Wg. II 'Luchs' (Sd.Kfz. 123) instead.
Pz.A.A. 10 (10. Pz.Div.) no Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, destroyed in North Africa May 1943.
Pz.A.A. 11 (11. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Oct/Dec 1943
Pz.A.A. 12 (12. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Apr 1944, vehicles delivered Jun/Jul 1944
Pz.A.A. 13 (13. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Sep 1943
Pz.A.A. 14 (14. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered Jul/Aug 1943
A.A. 33 (15. Pz.Div.) no Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, destroyed in North Africa May 1943.
Pz.A.A. 16 (16. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered Jun 1943
Pz.A.A. 17 (17. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Jan/Mar 1943
Pz.A.A. 18 (18. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943 but not carried out, division converted into 18. Art.Div.
Pz.A.A. 19 (19. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Aug 1944
Pz.A.A. 20 (20. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Jun 1944
A.A. 580/21 (21. Pz.Div.) no Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, destroyed in North Africa May 1943.
Pz.A.A. 21 (21. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1943, vehicles delivered Nov 1943.
Kradschtz.Btl. 24 (22. Pz.Div.) no Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, division disbanded Feb 1943.
Pz.A.A. 23 (23. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943, vehicles delivered Dec 1943/Jan 1944.
Pz.A.A. 24 (24. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered Jul/Aug 1943.
Pz.A.A. 25 (25. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Sep 1943, vehicles delivered Sep 1943.
Pz.A.A. 26 (26. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jan 1944, vehicles delivered Apr/Jun/Aug 1944.
27. Pz.Div. had no Pz.A.A. and thus as far as I can tell no Pz.Späh-Kp. c was authorized. , Division disbanded Feb 1943.
Pz.A.A. 116 (116. Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Apr 1944, vehicles delivered May/Jun 1944.
Pz.A.L.A. 130 (Pz.Lehr-Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c came with Pz.Aufkl.Lehr-Abt. from the 'Ersatzheer', vehicles delivered Oct/Dec 1943.
Pz.A.A. 1 HG (Fs.Pz.Div. HG) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1943, vehicles delivered Oct 1944.
Pz.A.A. Elbe/Döring (Pz.Div. Clausewitz) joined the division in April 1945 with a. o. 24 Sd.Kfz. 250/9
Pz.Div. Jüterbog did not receive any Sd.Kfz. 250/9.
Pz.Div. Müncheberg did not receive any Sd.Kfz. 250/9.
Pz.Div. Schlesien did not receive any Sd.Kfz. 250/9.

Pz.Korps-Aufkl.Abt. FH (Pz.Korps FH): Unit was ordered to be formed in mid March 1945 using Pz.A.A. FH (Pz.Div. FH) which was refitting in Wildflecken and later Milowitz since Oct 1944. 16 Sd.Kfz. 250/9 had alredy been delivered in late January 1945.

233. Res.Pz.Div. received a few Sd.Kfz. 250/9 but date of delivery unknown to me. These vehicles may have later ended up with Pz.Div. Holstein, but that's unconfirmed.

Pz.A.A. 103 (3. Pz.Gren.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered Jul 1943.
Pz.A.A. 110 (10. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
Pz.A.A. 115 (15. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
Pz.A.A. 116 (16. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized, division converted into 116. Pz.Div. Apr 1944.
Pz.A.A. 120 (20. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
Pz.A.A. 125 (25. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
Pz.A.A. 129 (29. Pz.Gren.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Feb 1943, vehicles delivered Jul/Nov 1943.
Pz.A.A. 190 (90. Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
Pz.A.A. BR (Pz.Gren.Div. BR) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Sep 1944, vehicles delivered Dec 1944 (possibly only little more than half of authorized 16).
Pz.A.A. 160/FH (60. Pz.Gren.Div./Pz.Gren.Div. FH/Pz.Div. FH) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized May 1943, vehicles delivered Oct 1943. No Pz.Späh Kp. c authorized when division was rebuild in March 1945.
Pz.A.A. GD (Pz.Gren.Div. GD) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943 but not carried out, used the Aufkl.Pz. 38 (Sd.Kfz. 140/1) instead.
Pz.A.A. 151 (Pz.Gren.Div. Kmk), the 2 surviving 'Zustandsberichte of the division seem to indicate the presence of a few Sd.Kfz. 250/9 but that's not 100% confirmed. May have come from the stocks of Pz.Gren.Ers.Brig. GD.
Pz.A.A. 2 HG (Fs.Pz.Gren.Div. 2 HG) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.

Pz.Brig. 101 - 113 did not receive any Sd.Kfz. 250/9.
Pz.Brig. 150? During Nov 1944 the 1./Pz.A.A. 2 was assigned to the brigade. This company was refitting in Germany and had just received 16 Sd.Kfz. 250/9. If these vehicles were actually taken along I do not know for sure.
Führer-Gren.Brig./Div. authorized 2 platoons Sd.Kfz. 250/9 Sep 1944, vehicles delivered Sep/Oct 1944.
Führer-Beg.Brig./Div. did not receive any Sd.Kfz. 250/9.

Pz.A.A. München (Pz.Jagd-Brig. 104) received 16 Sd.Kfz. 250/9 in Feb 1945. Unit incorporated into Pz.A.A. 4 (4. Pz.Div.) in Mar 1945.

SS-Pz.A.A. 1 (1. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943 but no vehicles delivered.
SS-Pz.A.A. 2 (2. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul 1943 but no vehicles delivered.
SS-Pz.A.A. 3 (3. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Jul. 1943 but no vehicles delivered.
SS-Pz.A.A. 4 (4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
SS-Pz.A.A. 5 (5. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1944, vehicles delivered Sep 1944.
SS-Pz.A.A. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1943, vehicles delivered Sep/Oct 1943.
SS-Pz.A.A. 10 (10. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1943, vehicles delivered Sep/Nov 1943.
SS-Pz.A.A. 11 (11. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized ? 1943, vehicles delivered Nov 1943.
SS-Pz.A.A. 12 (12. SS-Pz.Div.) Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized Oct 1943, vehicles delivered Dec 1943 & Jan/Feb 1944.
SS-Pz.A.A. 16 (16. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
SS-Pz.A.A. 17 (17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.
SS-Pz.A.A. 16 (18. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div.) No Pz.Späh-Kp. c authorized.

Records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. indicate the delivery of a Pz.Späh-Kp. c to Romania in Feb. 1944, further details unknown to me.

Pz.A.A. 69 (3. Kav.Div.) and Pz.A.A. 70 (4. Kav.Div.) were each allocated 16 250/9 and 9 250/3 in March 1945 while being formed in Milowitz. The vehicles for Pz.A.A. 69 were actually reported as delivered in April 1945. The unit left Milowitz on 20.4.1945 but I do not know if it managed to reach the 3. Kav.Div.
A handwriten note in the allocation files seems to indicate that the vehicles intended for Pz.A.A. 70 were given to Pz./E.u.A.Abt. 3/Pz.A.A. Döring instead and may have ended up with Pz.Div. Clausewitz.


An overview prepared by the Gen.Qu. covering the light armored vehicle status on all fronts as of 30.12.1944 shows Sd.Kfz. 250/9 with the following units:
5. Pz.Div. = 15
6. Pz.Div. = 15
7. Pz.Div. = 3
8. Pz.Div. = 16
12. Pz.Div. = 14
13. Pz.Div. = 1
14. Pz.Div. = 5
16. Pz.Div. = 16
17. Pz.Div. = 16
19. Pz.Div. = 16
20. Pz.Div. = 16
21. Pz.Div. = 7
23. Pz.Div. = 13
24. Pz.Div. = 6
25. Pz.Div. = 18
26. Pz.Div. = 17
116. Pz.Div. = 9
233. Res.Pz.Div. = 2
Pz.Lehr-Div. = 13
Fs.Pz.Div. 1 HG = 11
3. Pz.Gren.Div. = 8
29. Pz.Gren.Div. = 11
Pz.Gren.Div. BR = 10
Fhr.Gren.Brig. = 7
5. SS-Pz.Div. = 15
9. SS-Pz.Div. = 15
10. SS-Pz.Div. = 5
11 SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. = 8
12. SS-Pz.Div. = 4
H.Stu.Pi.Brig. 627 = 4 (possibly an entry in wrong column, brigade was authorized to have some le.SPW in its 'Goliath' companies, but actual use of any Sd.Kfz. 250/9 is so far unknown to me)
Kfz.Staffel d. H.Gr.B. = 3 (no further information available about this unit)

Martin Block
Last edited by Martin Block on Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:10 pm

Nice Martin!!! :D :up: :D

I don't think you will ever have to worry about your reputation!

Interesting, but no 250/9s issued to 4. Pz. Division? I only ask this because it actually sheds a slight bit of light on the use of the Luchs by this division.

Given the scale of the battles 4th Pz. was involved in from mid-1944 and the scarcity of Luchs due to production limitations, I would have expected Pz.A.A 4 to have had to flesh out its ranks with the 250 series. As I said, very interesting and very helpful! :D :D :D

Bestens,
David
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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:25 pm

Ah, Hi Martin, this is what caused me some confusion (as you know I've been looking into information about 4. Pz. lately).

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 00&start=0

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David
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Post by Scott Revell » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:27 pm

Martin,

You seriously have nothing to worry about regarding your reputation. Great post!! I will add a picture of a 250/9 hopefully this weekend.

Cheers

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:42 pm

Another question, does anyone know if the troops ever gave the 250/9 an unofficial nickname?


Bestens,
David
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Post by Piet Duits » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:18 pm

Dave,

As far as I know it, the 250/9 was (un) officially known as "Cäsar". This is something I have read in several sources, although this name does not come back in the official Suggestiv-Namen list I have somewhere else in my other sources.
Maybe Martin can clear this.

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Post by Martin Block » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:13 am

Well Dave, another reminder of the old saying that 'Nobody is perfect!'

Yes, I missed that one last night :oops: The 4. Pz.Div. had been authorized a 'Pz.Späh-Kp. c' already in May 1944 but with the remark 'current organization remains valid until currently used equipment is used up'.

I also had forgotten about Pz.A.A. München but now the above post is already updated accordingly.

@Piet
Sorry but no, I have no information available about 'Cäsar' being made official at some time.

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:10 am

Thank you Martin!!!! :D :D :D

I had the 4.Pz. material close at hand and had read it yesterday, which was why I was confused. Thanks again for being so helpful! :D :D :D

Just so you know, this is all an attempt for myself to straighten out my understanding of Pz. A.A. 4. It's a matter of what vehicles composed the Abteilung's companies in 1945 and nothing else.

Very Best,
David
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Post by Piet Duits » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:22 pm

Martin,

A veteran from the Panzer-Lehr-Aufklärungs-Abteilung wrote me they had a Cäsar Kompanie, and later I read that again, somewhere else.
Perhaps the Cäsar stood for the 1162 c.

Here's another tidbit of information:
When the SS-Panzergrenadier-Brigade "Nederland" was refreshed in mid 1944, they were authorized to have a platoon from 1162c in their Aufklärungs-Kompanie.
Eventually, this was never realised.

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:12 pm

Piet, I think you are entirely right about the "Casar-wagen". I found another reference to it in a personal account wherein the German officer describes it in detail.

Bestens,
David
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Post by Martin Block » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:22 pm

David,

I just remembered having an experience report for March/April 1944 with lots of technical details from the 2./Pz.A.A. 23 hidden in my archive. It is 6 pages long and I don't have the time for a full translation but here are at least a few quotes from the introduction and the summary to give an impression:

"... The company has fully proven its value during the recent fighting retreat hampered by indescribable dirt and mud. Today it cannot be missed anymore especially in combat reconnaissance. The foothills of the Karpathian Mountains which once more faced a reconnaisance unit with new problems showed this in particular.

... The Spähkompanie (c) which next to its original task had also to be employed in the attack role together with tanks and assault guns achieved sustained success.
The 2 cm gun had impressive moral as well as physical effect on the enemy. However, employment in the attack role will be the exception unless explicitly ordered by division HQ.

... In summary it can be said that during the first two months of employment with the company in Russia the Pz.-Spähwagen (c) has proven itself in the reconnaissance role als well as in combat actions. The small defects that appeared are eclipsed by the major advantages of the vehicle and the seasoned 'Radspähleute' as well as the seasoned SPW crews have meanwhile dropped their inital mistrust and developed full confidence in their new weapon after the company achieved success and did well when properly employed."

I do not know if this rather positive evaluation was typical because so far I have no other report for comparison.

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:25 pm

This is really great Martin!!! It's the first of any combat report I've read about the vehicle. I think we'll have to raise a volunteer squad of Feldgrau Kommandos and raid your archive to see what other treasures are hidden there!!!! :D :D :D :wink:

Very Best,
David :up:
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Post by Tom Houlihan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:22 pm

Commissar D, the Evil wrote:I think we'll have to raise a volunteer squad of Feldgrau Kommandos and raid your archive to see what other treasures are hidden there!!!!
I'm in!

Just make sure someone brings a cooler and some ice. His fridge isn't going to be big enough to hold all our beer, er, logistical support whilst we troll his archives!!! :D
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Post by Piet Duits » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:05 pm

His basement actually is big enough. And not only that, it is also organized!
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