Fuel type

[Helmut]

Servus,
Can someone direct me to a reference that shows what type of fuel various types of German Vehicles used? Modern day tanks use diesel fuel and I assumed that was the case in WWII but I read accounts about the fuel blowing up after a tank was hit, which would indicate gasoline since diesel doesn't blow up as readily.

Thanks in advzance for your help.

Regards,

Helmut

[krise madsen]

A quick n' dirty answer: Most vechiles used gasoline. A few used diesel, the PzKpfw 38(t) and SdKfz 234 as I recall (but don't take my word for it, I'm going by memory here).

At least in part, the choice of petrol for the Germans was based on the fact that for the attack on France, panzers could refuel at French petrol stations rather than having to wait for supplies from the rear, or so the story goes.

The "diesel myth" probably gained popularity with the movie "Patton" starring George C. Scott. In an early scene General Bradley (Karl Malden) notes that the US tanks used petrol and blew up when hit, whereas the German tanks were diesel-powered.

In fact, both types were generally petrol powered, but the US Sherman tanks had unprotected ammunition storage, causing the vechile to blow up, sometimes even when just hit by a ricochet.

For a more detailed and accurate answer, I'm afraid you'll have to wait for the true experts to log on

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Helmut]

krise,
Thanks for the response. It makes sense. The Germans had enough problems with fuel without diversifying into multiple types.

Thanks again,


regards,

Helmut

[HenschelTurret]

German's used petrol (generally). I read somewhere that the petrol generally used was low grade too. Makes one wonder how the machines would have performed with high grade fuel.
Out of interest, the Russian T-34 used Diesel. Diesel engines operate far easiser at low temperatures. Legend has it that the Germans could sometimes hear the start of T-34's and knew an attack along a sector was iminent as the engines still needed some warming up before operations began.

[derGespenst]

"Diesel engines work operate far easier at low temperatures"?? Where did you ever get that notion? Have you ever tried to start a diesel when it's cold? Not an easy task - in fact, you kind of belie your own statement when you give the example of listening to the T34s warm up - a very necessary process before putting a cold diesel in gear.

[HenschelTurret]

Living on a remote farm (admitidly in a southern hemisphere winter) has meant diesel equipment is the norm.
A google search with such words as "T-34 engine temperature" or similar should do the trick to verify anything.
Warming an engine up that one is able to start and hearing it sounds better than not hearing the silence from a partially frozen up engine. Warming any engine up would be done to FURTHER improve the performance.
It would be good to get more contributors on this thread.

[Tony]

My work truck (I'm a delivery man) is diesel powered and I have to let it warm up before I get out on the road or it could damage the engine pretty good. Probably has something to do with that diesels dont use spark plugs. I'm not a big know-it-all on the diesel subject though

Tony

[phylo_roadking]

On the petrol subject....all nations petrol was of very poor quality during the war, typified by British "Pool" petrol - no "regular" or "premium" in wartime, just a very-low octane rating muck that would hardly burn. When it comes to the cost of petrol, its the "owrking-over" it has to get before you pump it into your vehicle that makes it expensive - all the additives and anti-knock agents. Now admittedly this particular science was in its relative infancy too 1939-45, with tetra-ethyl lead being the main additive to stop "pinking" or predetonation in engines, especially high compression ones.

So "pool" petrol, with its very low octane rating, meant it was only really suitable for low-compression engines. Which a LOT of military engeines were, nice reliable sidevalve motors in softskins etc. or low-compression overhead-valve motors. Thats why SO many military vehicles survive in running order today - SO many trucks, prime movers etc had a long and HARD post-war life as wreckers, twotrucks, logging trucks, converted into all sorts of utility vehicles...or the engines robbed out to power machinery, saw benches etc.! BECAUSE their basically civilan engeines...were FURTHER detuned and compression lowered to run on "pool". So you have normally-reliable motors....running even LONGER on lowered poor output. Less strain for more years LOL

You can swap this situation straight across to the Wehrmacht - where THEIR engines had to run on the low octane rating "ersatz" petrol in worst case. So big lazy motors with low compression.

THATS why most military motors of the period have BIG cubic capacity, but LOW top speed or power output - very lazy and low states of tune to accomodate low octane fuel, and big bores to try and get power back "There ain't no substitute for cubes!"

The converse of this is of coure AERO ENGINES - VERY fast revving, multi-cylinder engines in ridiculously high states of tune to make the most power possible - so they NEED high-octane fuel to stop themselves predetonating. "Pinking" in worst case and high states of tune can literally nibble lumps out of combustion chambers and piston tops!....then melt pistons, wreck bores, burn valves..... So you EITHER limit the power they make - like the RAF limiting Spitfire superchargers to 3/4 boost until American hi-octane aviation fuel reached the UK - or feed them their ration of high octane!

What does high octane fuel do that low octane doesn't? Well, pre-detonation occurs because as the piston shoots up on the "squeeze" stroke of the four-stroke cycle, it burns spontaneously when compressed far too fast in a high compression motor - in other words DOESNT burn when you want it to! The additives added to fuel to stop this just makes it NOT burst into flame when compressed - but when the plug sparks i.e. exactly and only when you want it to.

So - put high-octane fuel in a low compression engine and what happens? Well, that depends on the engine, but most would burn cleaner, faster and rev higher because the hi-octane petrol is better than what your average motor is deisgned to run on! You've added a "tuned" component into the engine....and fuel IS a component in how your engine runs! Ever sneaked aviation spirit into your car or bike engine? If you can get it add just a little and see what ahppens!

Diesel was in as short supply during the war as petrol, especially for agricultural use. So in the UK at least tractors had a little side-tank bolted on, just a pint or so, which held real diesel; you started your track on THIS, then WHEN WARM flipped a tap over to "tractor vaporising oil" which was the muckiest, yuckiest nastiest fuel oil you could get - nearly parafin - that WOULDN'T run in a cold engine but WOULD just about run in a hot one! - then ploughed away to your hearts content LOL

Now, what did CIVILIANS do when "pool" petrol became all that was available? For those entitled to get ANY, that is? Well, a LOT of cars had to be laid up for the duration anyway, because their owners weren't entitled to a petrol ration, but big old sidevalve engines could tolerate pool petrol with their ignition retarded to suit. Why do you think the stereotypical BoB squadron leader in his MG sportscar came about? Easy - a tankful of sneaky aviation fuel!!!

Motorcycles were easier - the VAST majority were just single cylinders, so IF you could get any petrol at all, you got a "compression plate" milled that simply raised the barrel half an inch or an inch, hey presto instant "low compression" motor that would would run "pool" petrol! A lot of restored VERY late '30s motorcycles and very early postwar ones are restored with the compression plate still in place because it helps them run on crappy Unleaded petrol LOL

[bigun1_6605]

If you look on the side of German fighter planes you can see "87" which was the octane rating-sort of like in regular cars today. The US provided "100" octane to Britian and the USSR and it really helped performance.
One story involved the Aug 1, 1943 raid on Ploesti, where a US B-24 was shot down and slid on its belly. A Romanian saw the gas flowing from its tanks, grabbed a bucket, filled it up and poured it into his car. He then took off and 1/4 of mile down the road and that car just quit. Too rich for its engine.
Oh also the first Sherman tanks, I believe, used Allison aircraft engines because they were quickly available. Nothing like av-gas in a tank. Thats why some crew called them "ronsons", like the cigarette lighter.
Al Cagle

[FB]

Also the majority of the Italian motorized means in ARMIR were diesel. This one of the reason of their unavailability: the Germans, who were generally speaking gas-fuelled and who had to provide fuel to the Italians along the lines of the agreements between the two countries, gave - naturally enough - precedence to gas in their material shipments to the front.

The problem with diesel engines in winter stands not only in the engine itself, but more in the fuel: diesel fuel contains glicerine that has the bad habit of solidificating under, iirc, - 6 C. When this happens, the fuel pump cluggs and the engine cannot run, even if it is hot. You need to put addictives into diesel fuel in order to keep it liquid no matter the outside temp. Here on the Alps, during the winter diesel fuel is sold with addictive already mixed in (the higher you go, the more cold diesel fuel found at gas stations will be able to stand). A home made emergency solution can be that of adding some gasoline to diesel fuel: this will lower the limit where glicerine solidifies, but this must be done quite carefully as gasoline isn't the best stuff to feed a diesel engine with.

Best regards

[Epaminondas]

Americans and Germans also prioritized diesel for the navy.

Germans were well aware of the benefits and disadvantages of gasoline v. diesel; not to mention aluminum v. steel engine blocks. Lack of resources led to prioritization. Jentz's panzertruppen has a great analysis of the T34; and a proposal by frontline troops to copy it.

Interesting US Marine and Army Sherman's in the Pacific mostly had diesel engines so that they could refuel out of naval stores.

[tigre]

Hello to all ; taking advantage of this thread I would like to raise a doubt ..................

Alternative fuel tanks!

Look at this photo which I've found on eBay and showing a prototype using liquefied gas. I do not think that will be used in combat, but rather could be used for training of crews and drivers. Does anyone have information about this?

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Soldat-Unga ... 35f0d9d1fc

Cheers. Raul M .

[Alanmccoubrey]

Raul, try searching "Stadtgas" which is what I think they called it.

[tigre]

Hello Alan ; thanks for your tip, I'll take a look on that . Cheers. Raúl M .

[lwd]

A while back when I was looking at German trucks I noticed that about half (that's types not numbers) seam to have been diesel. The E or Shnellboats were also diesel I believe. Most US tanks sent to the USSR were also diesel.

As far as burning goes from the numbers I've seen German tanks were just about as likely to "brew up" as pre wet stowage Shermans if penetrated; wet stowage and not carrying more than a basic load of ammo apparently decreased the probability of Shermans burning but I'm not sure by how much. Soviet tanks burned as well but I haven't seen the stats on them.