The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Hans Weber
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Hans Weber » Sun May 25, 2008 9:53 am

Hello Martin

Thanks for the reply-

I think we must leave it with that unless new sources are opened. I can't deny what you have found on 4. Pz. Afaik 234/4 are mentioned in the "Memoirenliteratur" of the unit. What I can confirm is that with the error in Pz. AA München in the Zuführung ironed out (8 instead of 10 PSWs) we come to 75 cars allocated in January 45. That's exactly the same number in the Heeresamt files and from these I take that these were 33 x sPSW (2cm), 1 x 234/2, 6 x sPSW (7,5cm KwK), 25 x 234/4, 6 x le PSW (2cm) and 4 le PSW (Fu). If we put the number of 234/1 in 4 Pz.Div to 7, then we would have place the "freed" 234/4 elsewhere, into the Ersatzheer or 24. Pz. Div (in addition to the 7 I have there already) or similar, which is of course possible, but suspicous.

Maybe you are interested to hear that the 25 refurbished Luchse were not redistributed to AA 9 starting with 2 items in Sept. 43 already (as Jentz has it). The Zuführungsliste contain an error in that they omit 2 more Luchse allocated in February 44 (10 not 8 ). I always wondered at the speed of the overhaul of these two September Luchse. These were actually Luchse sent to the unit while still in the frontline. Also, the Heereswaffenamt files tell us that 2 Luchse went to the Ersatzheer in May 1944 and two more were sent back to Waffenamt to be repaired due to air dammage, possibly a HZA got bombed. It seems that a last run of 10 new Luchse was produced in September 1944 after a gap of several months (in February, 5 of the 15 issued were new ones, they went to 4. Pz. Div). All were allocated in September (according the Zuführungsliste 9 went to 4. Pz.Div). This leaves one new Luchs and my bet is on Hermann Göring, probably the lone Luchs still left with the Korps at the end of the year.

Cheers
Hans

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sun May 25, 2008 8:25 pm

Hans, wouldn't one Luchs be unsupportable by the divisional supply and repair facilities? I'd have thought it would have ended up, one way or the other, with 4. Pz. Just my guess, of course.

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David
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Hans Weber » Sun May 25, 2008 11:24 pm

David

It would probably be a problem. Still, if the Lagemeldung 30.12.1944 is correct, the HG Korps would field one such vehicle. What seems to be the case is that we miss Luchs #10 on the Zuführungsliste anyway, so it is hard to say if it was sent to 4. Pz. or to another unlisted unit. Also, an issue to HG would normally be noted down as an allocation to the Luftwaffe in the monthly overview, which is missing in this case, too.

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Hans

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Hans Weber » Mon May 26, 2008 1:57 am

Hello Martin

One further thought on the January 45 allocations that crossed my mind. If we work with your hypothesis on the A.A. München (which by the way is very much appreciated by me), there are two more for speculation: First is I increase the number of 234/1 from 1 to 3 in 4.Pz.Div and give the 2 x 234/4 to Feldherrenhalle (with some reservation, as with only one type 7,5cm sPSW they would look odd), or we add the two missing 2 cm le PSW in München as coming not from the arsenal, but directly from the Ersatzheer (the order was as you know that they would receive 10, not 8 items). Anyway, your help on this has been tremendous. Let's hope some more sources turn up.

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Hans

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Martin Block » Tue May 27, 2008 12:22 am

Hello Hans,

that 'Luchs' listed with the Korpstruppen of Fsch.Pz.Korps HG on 30.12.1944 in the Gen.Qu. listing puzzles me as much as the Sd.Kfz. 234/2 with the 13. Pz.Div.. You probably have made similar experiences with the accuracy of this kind of document. Comparing the data given in it with the divisional reports wherever possible lead me to an estimated error quote of at least 5% due to entries in wrong columns, confusion of vehicle types etc. and IMHO the two entries mentioned above most likely are some of these errors.

I checked my available files on Fsch.Pz.Korps HG again. There is only one 'Korpstruppe' that reported 2cm vehicle mounted guns and that is the Begleit-Kp. Fsch.Pz.Korps HG. The exact structure of this unit is still unclear to me because the tactical symbol used in the 'Kriegsgliederung' is just the one for a motorized infantry unit with a "Begl." written into the square.

But from the weapon symbols painted next to it the unit apparently had some gun armed armored vehicles available. To be exact the 'Ist-Gliederungen' of this unit dated 5.12.1944, 1.1.1945 and 1.2.1945 all do show 6 - 2cm Kwk and 1 - 7,5cm Kwk. The first two show only the weapon symbols while the third one show them mounted on some sort of wheeled vehicles.

Now the Gen.Qu. listing dated 30.12.1944 has 6 s.Pz.Sp.Wg. 2cm and 1 Luchs with the Korpstruppen plus a few SPW "übrige Arten" none of them 2cm or 7,5cm gun armed. Where has the 7,5cm Kwk gone? It can't have been lost because it's still there two days later and even in February 1945. In the document the columns for 'Luchs' and s.Pz.Sp.Wg. 2cm are located directly next to each other not separated by any lines or something. Frankly spoken I tend to believe the 'Luchs' actually was a Sd.Kfz. 233 or 234/3 that slipped into the wrong column while preparing the document.

Just my 2 Cents

Martin Block

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Wed May 28, 2008 4:56 pm

Just my 2 Cents
Worth much more than that to me..... :up: :up: :up:

Gentlemen, if you will both pardon any rhetorical excess on my part, watching the two of you (Hans Weber and Martin Block) collaborate on a subject is something like watching a sweet song being composed. I would bet that the more knowledgeable members of Feldgrau feel the exact same way.

I've known some brilliant folk in my time and in many fields other than German Military History. I've also often noticed that, in their ardor focused towards a particular subject, those same folk often don't seem to quite notice their own achievements--but others do. :D This Thread has nearly 17,000 views. Quite a record for such a scarce series of WWII German Armored Cars.

Bestens,
David
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sat May 31, 2008 8:28 pm

Okay Guys, don't be scared off by the effusive praise!!!! :D :D :D

I'm working on a question that should deeply annoy you................. :wink: :D

Bestens,
David
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Kelvin » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:51 am

Did 5 Panzer division never receive any sdkfz 234/1 and 234/3 ?

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Kelvin » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:51 am

Hans Weber wrote:Here is the new version of the

Allocation list of Sd.Kfz 234/1, 234/3 and 234/4

The following list is made from the allocation reports found at the BAMA at Freiburg under the signature number RH 10/349 and RH 10/350, and the files of OKH/Waffenamt, NARA T 78 Roll 169 - BAMA RH 8

The Sdkfz 234/1 and 234/3 were issued to troops starting in June 1944. At this time, the TO&E authorized a Stabskompanie to have 13 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3. A selected few Pz. Aufklärungsabteilungen were refitted according these guidelines. During the time from June till Octobre 1944, the monthly overview by Heeres-Waffenamt kept information on the older Skdfz 232 and 233, but didn’t differ the new variants of the type Sdkz. 234, except that the sheet on the Sdkfz 234 contained information on the Sdkfz 234/2, while the two other variants were included only in the numbers on the estimated production and the items accepted by the Waffenamt. So the information has to be gained by deduction and the in combination with the “Zuführungslisten” which contain data on the numbers delivered to Inspektion 6 (and thus the arsenals). As the stocks of Sdkfz 232 and 233 were at zero in June 1944 and none repaired this month, all the 2 cm and 7,5cm heavy armored cars isseud this month were of the new type.

1944

June

Waffenamt accpeted 62 new items, the highest entry ever, surpassing the expected 30 items.
Delivered to arsenals 60 new items, of which 7 x Sdkfz 234/2, the rest a mix of 234/1 and 234/3. 2 x 234/2 remained in the arsenals.

13 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to 116. Pz. Div. (unit full)
13 x 234/1 to 9. Pz. Div.
13 x 234/1 to 11. Pz. Div.
3 x 234/3 to 6. Pz. Div.
6 x 234/2 to 12. Pz.Div.

5./Pz.Aufkl.Lehr.Komp Krampnitz received one item. As this was the heavy Co of the Lehrtruppen Abteilung, most likely this was a new 234/3. With the same order a Sdkfz 234/2 was issued to Ersatzheer. It might have gone to the 4./Pz.Aufkl.Lehr.Komp. Krampnitz, as well.

July

Waffenamt accepted 32, still meeting the demanded production number of 30 items a month.
Delivered to arsenals were however only 13 new items (12 x 234/1 and 3, 1 x 234/2) and 2 repaired 232, which remained in stock. No 233 in stock. 1 234/2 was repaired, one new arrived, one 234/2 was issued to the Ersatzheer and might have ended up with 116. Pz.Div, thus in the arsenals at the end of then month 3 x 234/2 remained.

3 x 234/3 to 9. Pz.Div. (unit full)
3 x 234/3 to 11. Pz.Div (unit full)

August

Only 22 items were accepted by Waffenamt. The explication for not reaching the production goal of 35 was a shortage in “Differentialteile”.
31 new items were delivered to Insp. 6 (all new 234/1 and 234/3), 7 repaired items reached the arsenals, 3 x 233, of which two were reissued at once to the Ersatzheer – most probably ending up with 9. and 11. Pz. Div. - and 4 x 232, which were kept in stocks together with the two mentioned above and repaired in July. 3 x 234/2 in the arsenals.

3 x 234/1 to 6. Pz. Div (already having 3 x 234/3)
3 x 234/3, 4 x 234/1 to SS-Pz. Div. 2 “R”
3 x 234/3 to 8. Pz. Div.

September

The production goal of 35 was surpassed when 45 new items were accepted by Waffenamt. 41 of the 234/1 and 234/3 variant and 2 x 234/2 (new) were delivered. One of these Pumas was delivered to the Ersatzheer (not to 20. Pz. Div, correct this on my above Puma delivery list), stocks now at 4 x 234/2 at the end of the month. 3 x 233 were repaired and delivered and reissued, 2 to 14. Pz.Div., 1 to the Ersatzheer, thus one remaining in the arsenal. 4 x 232 were repaired and made a total of 10 x 232 in stocks, of which now 5 were issued to 14. Pz.Div and 5. Pz.Div, both units also received some le PSW. 5 x 232 thus remained in stocks.

9 x 234/1 to SS-Pz. Div. 2 “Reich” (unit full)
13 x 234/1 to 8. Pz. Div. (unit full)
10 x 234/1 to 6. Pz. Div. (unit full)
6 x 234/1 to FGB
3 x 234/3 to 20 Pz. Div. (in addition to 16 x 234/2)
4 x 232, 1 x 222, 2 x 223 to 5. Pz. Div.
1 x 232, 7 x 222 to 14. Pz. Div.

October

35 x 234/1 and one 234/3 were delivered to Insp. 6, 2 x 232 were repaired, of the 7 now available, 5 were issued to the Ersatzheer, 1 x 232 and 4 x 234/1 remained in the arsenals at the end of the month. 5 x 234/2 were repaired, of the 9 x 234/2 available, two were sent to the Ersatzheer and 7 remained in the arsenals as did 6 x 234/3 and 1 x 233. 15 x 222 and 10 x 223, all repaired, entered arsenals and except 1 x 222 all were reissued, in stock were 2 x 222 and 2 x 223.

3 x 234/3 to Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg (10 sPSW assigned, however only 3 delivered in Oct.)
3 x 234/1, 5 x 234/3 to SS-Pz. Div. “LAH” (the unit still had 8 x 234/2)
8 x 234/1 to Pz. Lehr Div. (the unit still had 4 x 234/2)
1 x 232, 13 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to Pz.Gren.Div. “Hermann Göring”
1 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3, 3 x 223, 6 x 222 to SS-Pz.Div. “HJ”
1 x 233 to Feld-Uffz.Schule
4 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3, 1 x 223, 2 x 222 to 20. Pz.Gren. Div
6 x 222 to 90. Pz.Gren.Div.
5 x 232, 2 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3 and 6 x 223 (only 3 noted down in Zuführungslisten as 221) were issued to the Ersatzheer

November

27 x 234/1 and 13 x 234/3 were delivered to Insp. 6, 4 x 232, 6 x 233, 1 x 222 and 2 x 223 were repaired and sent into arsenals. 4 x 232, 6 x 234/1, 4 x 234/2, 7 x 233, 9 x 234/3, 3 x 223 remained in the arsenals. The remaining 222 was sent back to WaA for repairs, stocks thus at 0.

2 x 234/1 to Panzer Lehr
2 x 234/1 to 2. Pz. Div.
1 x 232 to 21. Pz. Div.
4 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to 9. SS. Pz. Div. (unit ending refreshing with 13 PSW, light and heavy)
10 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3 to 9. Pz.Div. Possibly profiting from a confusion, the 10 x 234/1 actually landed in the hands of 9. SS-Pz. Div.
4 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 116 Pz Div. (unit full with 16 s PSW)
3 x 234/1 to 12. SS-Pz.Div.”HJ” (unit full with 16 PSW, light and heavy)
1 x 223, 2 x 222 to 25. Pz.Gren.Div.
3 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3 to Pz. Brigade 150

December

Production of 234/3 was stopped. 11 x 234/1, 17 x 234/3 and 25 x 234/4 were delivered to Insp. 6. 2 x 232 and 1 x 233, 6 x 222 and 3 x 223 were repaired and delivered to arsenals. Types available for distribution thus 17 x 234/1, 6 x 232 (all issued), 4 x 234/2, 26 x 234/3, 8 x 233 (all issued), 6 x 222, 6 x 223 (all issued). The old material was issued to 21. Panzer, Grossdeutschland and the Ersatzheer. At the end of the month remaining stocks were: 2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/2, 3 x 234/3, 25 x 234/4, 2 x 222.

2 x 222, 3 x 234/1, 3 x 234/3 to SS-Pz.Div “Frundsberg”
4 x 234/1 to Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg (to the 3 already on strength, see above)
3 x 234/3 to 4.SS Pol.Pz.Gren.Div
3 x 234/3 to Pz. AA Lehr-Kp (this unit together with what was then the Aufklärungs-Lehr-Abteilung - not to be confounded with ALA 130 - became part of Radfahr-Jäger-Brigade 10).
1 x 223 to OB HGr B
1 x 232, 2 x 234/3, 3 x 223 to the Ersatzheer
1 x 234/3 to Feldherrenhalle
1 x 234/3 to 1. Pz. Div.
2 x 234/3 to 13. Pz.Div.
1 x 234/3 to 23. Pz. Div
3 x 234/3 to 24. Pz. Div.
1 x 222, 2 x 223 to 5. Pz. Div.
8 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 1./190. Pz.Gren.Div (became part of AA Hirschberg, Pz. Brigade 103)
4 x 232, 2 x 233 to Grossdeutschland
3 x 234/2 to 7. Pz.Div (the last Pumas issued directly to a frontline unit)
3 x 234/3 to 17.SS.Pz.Gren Div.
6 x 233, 1 x 232 to 21. Pz.Div.

1945

January

37 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/4 were entering arsenals.7 x 222, 6 x 223, 1 x 232, 3 x 234/3 and 1 x 233 were repaired. It’s interesting to note that the ration between the variants often changes drastically between months. In summer, a big portion of 234/3 were produced early, leading to shortages of the 234/1 needed in bigger numbers and big stocks of 234/3. In February, only 234/4 would be delivered, while in March the deliveries would be split almost evenly between the two only variants left in production.

39 x 234/1, 1 x 232, 1 x 234/2, 6 x 234/3, 1 x 233, 28 x 234/4, 9 x 222 and 6 x 223 were in arsenals. This is the first month 234/4 were issued, although arsenals received them already in December. 7 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 7 x 234/4, 3 x 222 and 2 x 223 remained in stock at the end of it.

2 x 234/2, 7 x 234/4 to Brandenburg (4 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3 already on strength, see above, unit thus complete, unit also wrote a test report on the of 234/4)
5 x 234/4 to 10. Pz.Gren.Div.
3 x 234/1 to Pz. AA Lehr-Kp (3 x 234/3 already on strength, see above)
2 x 234/3 to Feldherrenhalle (now having 3 x 234/3)
2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 5 x 222 to Pz. AA “München” (the Zuführungsliste erroneously lists 7 le PSW, for Pz.Jagd-Brigade 104))
8 x 234/1, 7 x 234/3 to 24. Pz. Div. (complete type 45 Stabskompanie of a Aufklärungsabteilung, only one such in the Heer)
1 x 232, 6 x 234/1, 1 x 233, 1 x 234/2 to Ersatzheer
5 x 234/1, 1 x 222, 4 x 223 (or 221) to Polizei Schule Wien (this unit also had an assortment of older foreign PSWs, it’s not sure what happened here, a handwritten note only has 7 PSW leaving arsenals Feb. 10th, the unit fought and was destroyed in and around Vienna).
4 x 234/1 to SS-Pz.Div. “Totenkopf”
1 x 234/1, 2 x 234/3, to 1./ Pz. AA 190 (unit now at 9 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3)
1 x 234/1, 6 x 234/4 to 4 Pz. Div

February

26 x 234/4 delivered. 5 x 222 and 2 x 223 repaired and delivered.
Available 7 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3, 33 x 234/4, 6 x 222 and 5 x 223.
Remaining in stocks: 11 x 234/4, 6 x 222, 4 x 223

6 x 234/4 to FBD (for some reason listed as not being part of the Heer).
5 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to Pz. (Gren) Div. Kurmark (Neuaufstellung)
2 x 234/1, 1 x 234/3 to 25 Pz.Gren.Div (Auffrischung, the Zuführungsliste has 3 more cars, if indeed delivered, they were le PSW, as stocks of all variants other than 234/4 were now empty).
1 x 222 to KG Kluge
4 x 234/1 to FBD (Auffrischung)
3 x 234/4 to Pz.Div.HG (Stelle ausserhalb des Heeres, Luftwaffe)
3 x 234/4 to Pz.Div. Jüterborg (Neuaufstellung)
3 x 234/4 to Pz. Div. Schlesien (Neuaufstellung)

March

The material of the Heereswaffenamt ends with February. 35 sPSW were delivered to Insp 6, 2 sPSW and 16 le PSW were repaired and delivered. It’s not possible to say which variants were produced in what numbers, but remarks on the Zuführungsliste identify at least some deliveries to units.

4 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to 25. Pz.Div.
4 x 234/1, 4 x 234/4 to Pz. Div. Müncheberg
5 PSW to Feldherrenhalle, maybe 3 x 234/1 and 2 x 234/4 (new Pz.Korps Feldherrenhalle)

7 x PSW to 13. Pz. Div, maybe 4 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/4 (new Pz. Korps Feldherrenhalle)
3 x PSW toPz. Div. HG , maybe 234/4
4 x PSW to 8. Pz. Div, maybe 234/4
3 x 234/1, 3 x 234/4 to Begl.Kp.z.b.V (Begleitkompanie I, KG Moews)
8 x 222, 4 x 223 to A.A. 115

If the above is correct, then at least 18 x 234/1 had to be produced, leaving 17 x 234/4. Stocks would go down to 8 sPSW and 12 le PSW at the end of the month

April
Nothing on production, it’s possible that none were delivered.

3 x PSW to Pz. Div. HG (probably all sPSW)
6 x PSW to 25 Pz. Gren. Div (probably 2 x sPSW and 4 x le PSW)
6 x 234/4 to 116 Pz. Div. Probably ending up with Pz. AA. Döring (possibly 2 sPSW and 4 le PSW, according to an order dated April 7th to raise a KG from 116. Pz. Div.)

Cheers
Hans
Hi Hans , are you sure that 12 Panzer division received six sdkfz 234/2 in June 1944 ?

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Hans Weber » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:26 am

Hello

Delete this line. Don't know how it slipped in. The post was about 234/1, 234/3 and 234/4 anyway. The allocations of 234/2 are in another post. 12 Pz. Div. received a single 232 on June 7th 1944.

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Hans

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:34 pm

--Deleted by the Commissar as already answered in thread! :oops: :oops: :oops:

(Never though I'd delete myself......)
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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Kelvin » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:29 am

Why don't see any sdkfz 231 delivered during 1944-1945. Did German panzer division have any 231 ? On Dec 1 1944, 11. Panzer division had one 231.

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Kelvin » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:54 am

Hans Weber wrote:Martin

Still June allocations:

6. Pz. Div: 234/3. The unit received its full quota of 16 sPSW during the next months. I think the 3 x 234/3 were allocated either this month or in August 1944. The allocation in September were 10 x 234/1. There were no 232 and/or 233 issued this month (Übersichten Juni 1944).
5. Pz. Aufkl. Lehr Kp. 234/3. This was the schwere Kompanie of the the Lehrtruppen der Panzertruppenschule Krampnitz, whereas the 4. Kompanie was the Pz.Aufklärungskompanie. An allocation of a heavy armored car to this schwerer Kompanie instead to the Pz.Aufklärungs-Kompanie is interpreted by me as concerning a vehicle with a 7,5cm calibre. No 233 were allocated this month. The Übersicht mentions one type 234/2 allocated to the Ersatzheer, the Zuführungsliste repeats such an allocation. I suggested the 4./Pz.A.Kp d.Pz.Trp.Schule Kr. also on the basis of a 234/2 marked as a 4th Co vehicle (which is unusual to the standard them being either part of the 1. Kompanie or Stabskompanie in frontline units).

July

According to "Übersicht Juli 1944", a single 234/2 was allocated to the Ersatzheer. The Zuführungsliste mentions only one attribution to the Ersatzheer. Thus it must be this 234/2. I repeat that it's the only allocation to the Ersatz for July, although the Zuführungsliste August has two more allocations to the Ersatzheer dated 27. and 30 July (see below).The handwritten remark "116 Pz. Div" next to this allocation is known to you. T

I migth add here that the le PSW allocated to 10. Pz.Gren Div in July are 14 x 222 and 6 x 223, the unit is considered as being in "Auffrischung". Also refreshing were 23. Pz. Div and 17. Pz.Div, the first getting 6 x 223 and the second 4 x 223. There was a newly raised Aufklärungsabteilung for 19 Pz. Div. getting 12 x 222 and 7 x 223. Gen.d.Pz.Trp. West got 1 x 223 and the new Pz. AA 25 got 12 x 222 and 6 x 223 (it would get its last 223 in August).

August

Although marked on the Zuführungsliste August as allocated in July, both the Zuführung and the Übersicht treat the allocation of two sPSWs to the Ersatzheer on their August lists. I suppose that they were allocated in July, but this was announced as "Nachmeldung" and treated by both offices under the August material. Note that this was not so in the above case with Pz. AA 25, were the allocations were correctly noted down by OKH Waffenamt as happening in July, but treated in the August list in the Zuführung set, although with the correct date 31th July (You see, stuff like this is driving me nuts, I just can't bother here with another set of dates on shipments from HZA as probably most of the readers will have enough problems with catching up already).The only two sPSW allocated in the August "Übersicht" are two repaired 233. In the Zuführungsliste, the entry Ersatzheer has the added remark 9. Pz and 11. Pz. They are the only entries for the Ersatzheer in August.

Regarding 6. Pz. I refer to the above, June 1944.

We seem to agree on "Das Reich".

Cheers
Hans
Hi Hans, you list 19 Panzer division received 12 x 222 and 7 x 223 in July 44 but I cannot find 223 or MG symbol in 19 Pz Nov and Dec 44 OOB chart, did it really receive 7 x 223 ?

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Martin Block » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:49 am

A different report from 30.12.1944 does list 7 le.Pz.Sp.Wg. MG (= Sd.Kfz. 223) so it's pretty sure they got them.
Don't know why the machine guns of the vehicles were not listed but since the coaxial machine guns of the Sd.Kfz. 222 aren't listed either I'm not surprised to not find those of the Sd.Kfz. 223.

Martin Block

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Re: The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Kelvin » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:10 am

Martin Block wrote:A different report from 30.12.1944 does list 7 le.Pz.Sp.Wg. MG (= Sd.Kfz. 223) so it's pretty sure they got them.
Don't know why the machine guns of the vehicles were not listed but since the coaxial machine guns of the Sd.Kfz. 222 aren't listed either I'm not surprised to not find those of the Sd.Kfz. 223.

Martin Block
Hello, Martin, thank for your data and very helpful. Did your different report on Dec 30 1944 also list sdkfz 223 in 3. Panzer division. According to Kamen Nevenkin book " Fire Brigades" chapter on 3. Panzer division said 19 le pz sp wg sent to 3. Pz division in Aug 1944. I suppost it was standard 12 x 222 and 7 x 223. I find also different data on Nov and Dec 44 OOB chart : 14 2 cm cannon symbols and 22 MG symbol in stab kompanie of 3. Pz AA. I suppose it was 14 x 222 and 8 x 223 but it was not match for Kamen figure.

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