The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:33 pm

Say guys, just as an experiment, could we use this Thread to collect as much information on the 8-wheeled 234 series of armored cars?

I'll make this Thread a sticky and we can add any information to it: specifications, divisions employing any of the series, pictures, production figures--anything relevant at all to the 234 series!!!!

My thought is that we could collect all of the information possible on this vehicle series and put it into this Thread. If we do a good enough job, we can pick another AFV to "profile" later.

Do you think that this is worth doing? It would be nice to have as much information on this group of vehicles in one handy thread. :up:

Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:16 pm

Yes , it is for sure , dear Commissaire 8)

Here is our supplyment so far regarding pictures and units :

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2431

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:28 pm

The Sd. Kfz. 234 Family:

Schwerer Panzerspahwagen 234/1--20mm KwK 39/1 L/55 main armament.

Schwerer Panzerspahwagen 234/2 (Puma)--50mm KwK 39/1 L/60 main armament.

Schwerer Panzerspahwagen 234/3--75mm KwK 51 L/24 main armament

Schwerer Panzerspahwagen 234/4--75mm PaK 40 L/46 main armament.

Next, I think we should look at production numbers, to build the story of this AFV family from its basics.

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David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:31 pm

Thank you comrade Jan-Hendrik!

From that site, a photo of an Sd. Kfz. 234/4:

Image

Best,
David
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:59 pm

What we have so far ....

234/1 , around 200 build :

PzAA / 1.SS LAH, IV/1944/1945, 5
PzAA / 2.SS DR, IV/1944, 13
PzAA / 9.SS HS, IV/1944, 4
PzAA / 12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 4
PzAA / PLD, IV/1944, 13
PzSpK / FGB, IV/1944, 6
PzAA / 2. PzD, IV/1944, 2
PzAA / 4. PzD, 29.Jan.1945, 7
PzAA / 9. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 11. PzD, IV/1944, 11
PzAA / 25. PzD,
PzAA / 116. PzD, IV/1944, 10
PzBrig 150, 1944, 6 -> an LAH?
PzAA "Elbe" / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1
??????PzAA / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1+????????
PzSpKp "M" / "PzD "Müncheberg", März 1945, 3+


234/2 , 101 build :

PzAA / PLD II/1944, 25
PzAA / 1.SS LAH, II/1944, 16
PzAA/ 2. PzD, II/1944, 25 (noch 11 im Dez.1944)
PzAA / 20. PzD, III/1944, 16
KGr Putlos / PzD "Clausewitz", 1945, 1+
PzAA / 7. PzD, 2.1944, 6

???PzAA / 13. PzD, 1944, ??????????? laut Jentz
Rest (12?) an WaPrü und Schulen



234/3 , 88 build :

PzAA / PLD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 9. PzD, /IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 11. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 116. PzD, III/1944, 2
PzAA / 1.SS LAH, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 2.SS DR, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 9.SS HS, IV/1944, 3
PzAA / 12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 3


234/4 , 89 build :

PzSpKp 101 / FBD, 16.2.1945, 6
PzSpKp "S" / PzD "Schlesien" 21.2.1945, 3 -> PzAA 44 / PzD "Holstein" -> 18. PzGrenD
PzAA / PzD "Jüterbog" 21.2.1945, 3 -> PzAA / 16. PzD
PzAA "Elbe" / PzD "Clausewitz", April 1945, 2
PzSpKp "M" / PzD "Müncheberg", 29.3.1945, 4
PzAA / 25. PzD, 14.3.1945, 3
PzAA / 21. PzD, 1.4.1945, 3
Begl.Kp zbV, 1.4.1945, 3 (Tl KGr Speer sein (Begl.Verband OKW Zossen???))
PzAA "HG" / PzD "HG", 10.4.1945, 3
PzAA / 25. PzGrenD 25, 12.4.1945, 6
PzAA / 116. PzD, 15.4.1945, 6



You see , especially 234/3 and 234/4 there are still many vehicles where still nobody could trace down which unit received them !

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Post by Tom Houlihan » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:10 pm

Jan-Hendrik wrote:You see , especially 234/3 and 234/4 there are still many vehicles where still nobody could trace down which unit received them !
Jan-Hendrick, didn't Ron Klages determine that a few of them anyway went to training units?

Or was that chassis so common by that point that it wasn't necessary?
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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:14 pm

Really nice information Jan-Hendrik! :up: :up: :up: I'm a little surprised at the low overall production numbers.

Best,
David
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:15 pm

At least it seems that this ones , 234/2 ,
Rest (12?) an WaPrü und Schulen
seem to be used for training purposes , I think they were used at

PanzerAufklärungsLehrgänge , Lutschienitz , see :

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21248

Dave , this thanks goes to Panzer-Archiv-Member indy who always actualize this list if we stumble over "new ones" , especially in Martin Block's excellent posts 8)

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:52 pm

There is a mention in Neumann's "Die 4. Panzer Division" that on January 25th of 1945 that Pz. A.A. 4 sent newly arrived "Tatra" armored cars armed with the 75mm gun into battle. From other readings, I strongly suspect that these were 234/4s.

Best,
David
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:03 pm

And Mr. Block seriously doubts this as he found nothing proving Neumanns statement , primary sources states "only" 7 234/1 arrived at PzAA4 on 29th January 1945 , see :

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 1&start=45

And , yes , Martin convinced me :idea:
:[]

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:12 pm

Comrade Jan-Hendrik, I'd never argue with my good friend Martin in his area of expertise, but Neumann is specific and, I think I may have another source.
(That will have to wait until tomorrow, it's quite late here.)

I wouldn't, as a matter of sheer conservatism, be too dogmatic about what 4th Panzer was equipped with in January of 1945. The Division was rebuilding after Courland, had left its Panther Abt. in Courland and arrived on the battlefield in Prussia in dribs and drabs. I'd imagine that any armored vehicle unable to reach its assigned unit further East in Prussia would have found a new unofficial "home" with it. :D

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David
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:24 pm

. I'd imagine that any armored vehicle unable to reach its assigned unit further East in Prussia would have found a new unofficial "home" with it.
This was our thesis , too ( remember the JgPzIV of 5./PzRgt.25 :D ) , but according to Martin there where no possible 234/4er on railway in this area ....

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:31 pm

Hi Jan-Hendrick, but Schaufler elaborates on the incident in "Panzer and der Weichsel" and specifically says that the "Tatras" were armed with the long 75mm guns.

Both Schaufler and Neumann were actually there.

This is not in any way meant to insult either Martin or you, who have supplied such valuable information in the past.:D :D

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David
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:40 pm

Dear David , how could you insult ??

The problem is that the further a memory is away from its past the danger increases that it could trick , that's why it is our duty to recheck each information as much as it is possible for us ( and that's why I love to work with such interesting people who make it possible to crosscheck such stuff in so many ways , by the way , Hubers "Beute"-JgdPz IV/70 have belonged to PzJgAbt.10 or PzJgAbt.GD ) .

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:48 pm

:D :D :D

Yes Jan-Hendrik, I agree that it is our duty to check and re-check these things and sort out history from the errors of memory! That's why I count on folks like you, Martin, Kamen and Ron Klages, to name but a few.

In this instance, what struck me about the passage in Schaufler's book was the possibiltiy that he was simply repeating Neumann's assertion. But, then he tied it to the fuel state of the Division and pointed out that the vehicles were more than welcome because they used diesel fuel, which, unlike petrol, the division wasn't short of--that gave the passage an air of validity seperate from what Neumann wrote. Ah, another mystery..... :wink: :D

Very Best,
David
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