Production/ delivery time for one Panther/ Panzer IV

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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marcb
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Production/ delivery time for one Panther/ Panzer IV

Post by marcb »

How long would it take for one Panther or Panzer IV to be fully built and delivered to troops in the field during 1944?

Thanks in advance.
best regards,

Marc
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Do the maths. Take the annual production figures, then reckoned how many hours in the day working 24/7 under a war economy, divide the production figure into the total hours and theres your figure.

Otherwise its hard to state categorically becaue they werent made in such a way that allows time measurement like that, production line construction of dozens side by side precludes that.

Here's an example. In the US everyone involved stopped production of liberty ships for a publicity stunt in 1943. ONE ship was build through the whole process start to finish in THREE days. Otherwise with normal production methods was very hard to work out.

Thats why any time figure you see was worked out in the same way, divide hours by production figures for an average.

Remember it IS an average - doesnt allow for faster or slower production due to bombing, raw materials shortage etc, like all those ME262's sitting in fields with no engines in 1945 because aircraft production outstripped engine production.

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Post by hruza »

things like this were usuali measured in norm-ours.
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Post by von_noobie »

Well i did some estimating with my trusty calculator and found out that had the Germans abanoned production of the Tiger between March and August 1944 the Germans could have built 1200 panthers approx, Rather than the 300 or so Tigers built in that time.

I personnaly beleive it would have been better,
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Post by phylo_roadking »

better, hmmm.....how many jagdpanzers or hetzers cud have been built in that time? Problem was numbers, not flexibilty and 360degree turret transverse when youre fitting a defensive battle.

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Post by von_noobie »

Even in a defensive Battle you need Tanks with Traverse, But the ratio of traverse and none-traverse tanks is what we need to know, im guessing 25-75 for traverse and none-traverse,
So if my math is correct the number of traverse tanks os 300 while the number for none traverse tanks is about 1,800-2,300 Hetzers.
Reason for still having trverse tanks is simple, If an enemy keeps weakening his troops in attack it would make the perfect oppertunity for counter attack, And for counter attack you need traverse tanks,
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Production Time Relativity

Post by Ron Klages »

Guys,

From Spielberger's book PANTHER AND ITS VARIANTS he states the following:

Hull production = 55 hours
turret production = 38 hours
chassis assembly = 485 hours
turret assembly = 150 hours
final assembly = 85 hours
all other elements = 1187 hours

Total = 2000 hours for a single complete Panther


I also disagree with the figure of 1200 Panthers versus 300 Tigers since those figures result because of the number of companies producing a particular tank.

I believe a better way to look at the relative time to produce a particular type is to find the peak monthly production by a single company and relate each to one another. For example, if you do this you arrive at the following:

• Tiger I peak was 104 in the month of April 1944 or 3.467 Tiger Is per day
• Tiger II peak was 94 in the month of August 1944 or 3.032 Tiger IIs per day
• Panther peak for MAN was 155 in the month of August 1944 or 5.000 Panthers per day
• Panther peak for MNH was 131 in the month of August 1944 or 4.221 Panthers per day
• Panther peak for DB was 125 in the month of July 1944 or 4.032 Panthers per day
• StuG III for Alkett was 361 in the month of December 1944 or 11.645 StuG IIIs per day
• StuG III for MIAG was 150 in the month of November 1943 or 5.000 StuG IIIs per day
• JgPz 38 for BMM was 298 in the month of November 1944 or 9.933 JgPz 38s per day

Therefore you could produce 1.442 Panthers for one Tiger I [5.000 divided by 3.467]

Therefore you could produce 3.359 StuG IIIs for one Tiger I [11.645 divided by 3.467]

Therefore you could produce 2.865 JgPz 38s for one Tiger I [9.933 divided by 3.467]

Now this math is based on all elements being equal by every company and we know that is not true when you look at the variations for a Panther between the three companies.

The real question that I believe is critical is the materials used in each type and the availability of these materials. For example, when one runs low on the availability of brass to make cartridge shell for all kinds of weapons, the Germans had to resort to a clear coating of steel shell to prevent rust. When this was done then guess what, the coating began to flak off in the chamber and jamming increased significantly.

Also by mid to late 1944 the fuel situation was dictating the actual number of panzers that could be operated rather than the quantity of panzers available. Just look at the Battle in the Ardennes in December 1944.

The US [Shermans] and the Russians [T-34s] succeeded by building an adequate to excellent tank and then sticking with it whereas the Germans were always striving to engineer a bigger and better panzer and this just resulted in the waste of man and material, both of which were limited assets within the Reich. Yes, the Germans increased production but they had to do it with slave-labor and sabotage was begging to increase as early as 1943.

Best regards,

Ron Klages
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Post by von_noobie »

Fair enought Ron Klages, I made an honest mistake and am sorry but In reality which was better, The Panther or the Tiger I, The Tiger I and Panther were pretty much equal, The Tiger I had thicker armour but the panther made up for ths with sloped armour, The Tiger I had a bigger gun but the panther made up for this with a longer range, So really the Panther was even to the Tiger I if not better. So even if we only produced 432.6 Panthers for those 300 Tiger I's they would still be better off.
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