Yeah, topic say it all...
I know that Waffen-SS units often were given the newest equipment and so on and had a large element of fanaticial fighting spirit.
My personal view is that most regular Heer/Fallshirmjäger/gebirgsjäger divisions where just as good if not better,
but without the fanatical element and they had in many respects more sensible commanders.
A regular Wehrmacht division compared to a Waffen-SS div.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Keyser,
There have been long debates in recent moths as to whether Waffen-SS divisions really did get better equipment earlier than the army.
To cut a very long story short, the Waffen-SS seems to have got priority over the army to expand its armoured element in 1942-44 but the actual deliveries of tanks to the Waffen-SS was in a similar proportion to the Army. i.e. In 1943-45 the proportion of Panther tanks sent to the Waffen-SS compared to the number sent to the Army was similar to the proportion of Waffen-SS panzer divisions compared to the number of Army panzer divisions.
The Waffen-SS as a whole was a mixed bag, but within it there were some very good formations, almost all of which were raised of Germans. My feeling is that as they received preferential allocation of manpower, they ought to have been good formations. Early in the war the Waffen-SS consisted entirely of volunteers, whereas the Army was largely of conscripts and reservists. When the German Waffen-SS expanded later in the war and began to use conscripts, these were all of the prime military age groups. The Army also had to absorb many older or unfit men the Waffen-SS never even considered.
However, I can see no good military reason why the Waffen-SS was formed as an independent arm in the first place as it contributed no new specialisation or skill that the German Army, already probably the world's best, did not possess already. The reason for the Waffen-SS's existence was political, not military.
Cheers,
Sid.
There have been long debates in recent moths as to whether Waffen-SS divisions really did get better equipment earlier than the army.
To cut a very long story short, the Waffen-SS seems to have got priority over the army to expand its armoured element in 1942-44 but the actual deliveries of tanks to the Waffen-SS was in a similar proportion to the Army. i.e. In 1943-45 the proportion of Panther tanks sent to the Waffen-SS compared to the number sent to the Army was similar to the proportion of Waffen-SS panzer divisions compared to the number of Army panzer divisions.
The Waffen-SS as a whole was a mixed bag, but within it there were some very good formations, almost all of which were raised of Germans. My feeling is that as they received preferential allocation of manpower, they ought to have been good formations. Early in the war the Waffen-SS consisted entirely of volunteers, whereas the Army was largely of conscripts and reservists. When the German Waffen-SS expanded later in the war and began to use conscripts, these were all of the prime military age groups. The Army also had to absorb many older or unfit men the Waffen-SS never even considered.
However, I can see no good military reason why the Waffen-SS was formed as an independent arm in the first place as it contributed no new specialisation or skill that the German Army, already probably the world's best, did not possess already. The reason for the Waffen-SS's existence was political, not military.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Joe Cleere
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Heer vs. Waffen SS
While many of the German Waffen SS formations were very effective on the battlefield, it should be pointed out that it was the first wave infantry, motorized infantry, and panzer divisions that were used to conduct most of the fighting in Poland, 1939 and France, 1940. The 10th and 17th Infantry Divisions along with the Leibstandarte were part of the same corps in the Eighth Army, which was part of Army Group South. The 10th and 17th Infantry Divisions performed better than the Leibstandarte.
They were consistently able to perform their assigned missions, which included opposed river crossings at night and during the day. Leibstandarte in fact fell behind these two divisions in the march across western Poland.
In my opinion, the first wave infantry, motorized infantry, and panzer divisions had morale almost as high as that of the Waffen SS and they had better leadership. They were the best formations that each Wehrkreis could provide. I also think it is interesting that the II Battalion of the 92nd Infantry Regiment from the 2nd Infantry Division was transferred to the newly formed Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiment intact and simply redesignated II/Infanterie Regiment Grossdeutschland.
This should tell us something about the quality of first wave infantry formations, especially in the first half of the war.
They were consistently able to perform their assigned missions, which included opposed river crossings at night and during the day. Leibstandarte in fact fell behind these two divisions in the march across western Poland.
In my opinion, the first wave infantry, motorized infantry, and panzer divisions had morale almost as high as that of the Waffen SS and they had better leadership. They were the best formations that each Wehrkreis could provide. I also think it is interesting that the II Battalion of the 92nd Infantry Regiment from the 2nd Infantry Division was transferred to the newly formed Grossdeutschland Infantry Regiment intact and simply redesignated II/Infanterie Regiment Grossdeutschland.
This should tell us something about the quality of first wave infantry formations, especially in the first half of the war.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Joe,
The 1st Wave Infantry Divisions were the thirty-six standing peacetime divisions. In 1939 they contained the two most recent years of conscripts. At war establishment only 20% of their manpower were reservists, most from other recent conscript years. They were, indeed, very good.
I have beefed elsewhere about the irrationality of motorising the three embryonic senior Waffen-SS divisions at the beginning of the war, when so many of the army's initially more capable 1st Wave Infantry Divisions remained on foot. I put it down to the political impetus behind the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Sid.
The 1st Wave Infantry Divisions were the thirty-six standing peacetime divisions. In 1939 they contained the two most recent years of conscripts. At war establishment only 20% of their manpower were reservists, most from other recent conscript years. They were, indeed, very good.
I have beefed elsewhere about the irrationality of motorising the three embryonic senior Waffen-SS divisions at the beginning of the war, when so many of the army's initially more capable 1st Wave Infantry Divisions remained on foot. I put it down to the political impetus behind the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Freiritter
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- Location: Missouri, USA
Personally, I find it odd that the Wehrmacht practiced mobile mechanized warfare and did it with separate panzer/motorized forces with a predominantly foot infantry army. Why didn't the Wehrmacht motorize all of their infantry formations? 
Cordially,
Freiritter
Cordially,
Freiritter
Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Freiritter,
Lack of vehicles.
Britain, as a country, was more motorised than Germany and was able to motorise all its dozen or so divisions in 1940. However, Germany then had to equip about a hundred divisions and could only motorise a minority of them.
In 1941-42 Germany plundered Europe for vehicles to motorise more divisions (including some 1st Wave Infantry Divisions) but, as it doubled its total of divisions to about 200, this did not make much difference to the proportion fully mechanised.
Cheers,
Sid.
Lack of vehicles.
Britain, as a country, was more motorised than Germany and was able to motorise all its dozen or so divisions in 1940. However, Germany then had to equip about a hundred divisions and could only motorise a minority of them.
In 1941-42 Germany plundered Europe for vehicles to motorise more divisions (including some 1st Wave Infantry Divisions) but, as it doubled its total of divisions to about 200, this did not make much difference to the proportion fully mechanised.
Cheers,
Sid.
I have read somewhere, I can't remember the source, that S.S. company grade officers had a very high casualty rate. If true, this could mean that the junior officers set good examples by leading from the front. It could also mean lower combat effectiveness as the troops would now be led by more unseasoned officers. Can anyone help out? Did the junior officers have high casualty rates, and did the combat effectiveness decrease?
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Piet Duits
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- Location: Oudenbosch, Nederland
Hi,
Some changes between Heer and Waffen-SS field units, all according to Soll-Gliederung:
first of all, where the Heer used Unteroffiziere for commanding a platoon in a company (mostly 3. Zug), the SS used Offiziere (according to SOLL!!!)
secondly: because of the fact that the SS did not have a large portion of supporting troops like the Heer had, the field units had to have such individuals themselves. So, SS-units had small numbers of dentists, medical-NCO's, and logistic (command) personnel to add to their numbers.
Now, some facts (1944 related) about the SS-Divisions compared with Heer:
the Waffen-Grenadier-Division der Waffen-SS (14., 15., 19., 20. SS-Div.) were the same in organisation as the Infanterie-Division 44. Excluding the specialists I mentioned above.
the SS-Panzer-Divisionen: well, much is written about them. According to the 1944 Soll-Gliederung of such a unit, the most obvious changes compared to the Heer-counterpart were: 1 extra Panz.Gren.Btl. (mot.) in each of the 2 Panz.Gren.Rgt., 1 extra le FH-Abteilung in the Pz.Art. Rgt.1, the Erkundungszug in the Stabskompanie / SS-Panz.Pionier-Btl. was changed into a platoon equipped with Panzerspähwagen. Besides the changes in the fighting elements of the Div., the Versorgungstruppen however were a lot different compared with the Heer.
For example, the Verwaltungstruppen-Abteilung (formarly known as SS-Wirtschafts-Abteilung) were all build according to special SS-Kriegstärkenachweisungen (in short: KStN). The Kfz.Instandsetzungs-Truppen were organised under a battalion staff, together building the SS-Pz.Instands.Abt., and so forth.
About the SS-Pz.Gren.Div.: as I am typing this all from the top of my head (not using any sources) I have to skip this part now. I have not done a lot of research on that topic thusfar.
I hope it is of use to you,
Some changes between Heer and Waffen-SS field units, all according to Soll-Gliederung:
first of all, where the Heer used Unteroffiziere for commanding a platoon in a company (mostly 3. Zug), the SS used Offiziere (according to SOLL!!!)
secondly: because of the fact that the SS did not have a large portion of supporting troops like the Heer had, the field units had to have such individuals themselves. So, SS-units had small numbers of dentists, medical-NCO's, and logistic (command) personnel to add to their numbers.
Now, some facts (1944 related) about the SS-Divisions compared with Heer:
the Waffen-Grenadier-Division der Waffen-SS (14., 15., 19., 20. SS-Div.) were the same in organisation as the Infanterie-Division 44. Excluding the specialists I mentioned above.
the SS-Panzer-Divisionen: well, much is written about them. According to the 1944 Soll-Gliederung of such a unit, the most obvious changes compared to the Heer-counterpart were: 1 extra Panz.Gren.Btl. (mot.) in each of the 2 Panz.Gren.Rgt., 1 extra le FH-Abteilung in the Pz.Art. Rgt.1, the Erkundungszug in the Stabskompanie / SS-Panz.Pionier-Btl. was changed into a platoon equipped with Panzerspähwagen. Besides the changes in the fighting elements of the Div., the Versorgungstruppen however were a lot different compared with the Heer.
For example, the Verwaltungstruppen-Abteilung (formarly known as SS-Wirtschafts-Abteilung) were all build according to special SS-Kriegstärkenachweisungen (in short: KStN). The Kfz.Instandsetzungs-Truppen were organised under a battalion staff, together building the SS-Pz.Instands.Abt., and so forth.
About the SS-Pz.Gren.Div.: as I am typing this all from the top of my head (not using any sources) I have to skip this part now. I have not done a lot of research on that topic thusfar.
I hope it is of use to you,
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