Copying/posting book material

[John P. Moore]

To anyone who insists on taking a liberal interpretation of copyright law when posting photos or other material from copyrighted books or other media I issue the following challenge: Have the courage of your convictions to include your real name and address in every such future post where you engage in that behavior. Don't hide behind some mysterious screen name.

As far as the concepts of "fair-use" , "intent" and non-profit" are concerned, ask yourselves why the many people who shared music over the Internet decided to settle out of court rather than go to trial when contacted by the copyright holder.

John Moore

[Jason Pipes]

John, my full identity is here for all to see.

I'm rather baffeled that you seem to equate music-swapers with posting excerpts or an image from a book. I don't see the connection at all. If you want to compare apples to apples, it would require someone copying an entire book and posting it on Feldgrau for anyone to download. Otherwise, music swaping and the cases we have been talking about here ARE NOT related at all.

[trotlin13]

Unfortunately, I am an attorney, and I would dare to hazard a guess that I have more experience in copyright law than the combined membership of this forum. However, if you still feel the need to argue your position as something akin to moral responsibility, or better, a lay person's interpretation of this complex area of law, then again, prosecute your case in your chosen federal forum.

Jason is quite correct. There is no equating piracy to infringement. This forum is dedicated to research, and the vast majority of postings further these educational pursuits. Sorry, this conduct is never an infringement.

Dylan Vigh
BROOKE MAWHORR, P.C.
Indianapolis IN

[Groscurth]

Thank you Trotlin for underscribing as a advocate our views and the law.
Things are not that thight for Feldgrauers.

[greenhorn]

Interesting thread........ obviously photographs are copyrighted, the holders should be contacted.

In research limited extracts are frequently quoted and refernced, but pages and pages of copied material is taking the piss.....

[panzermahn]

After reading posts by Mark Yerger and John Moore, I have to said that I agreed 200% with them.

If you wanted to use any photos or text from their book, one should have the courtesy and maturity to asked from them personally instead of blatantly copying from their book. Those people who did these despicable acts of xeroxing entirely from author's book are nothing more than low IQ people who eats nothing but garbage.

For example, me and my co-author are currently doing a manuscript for a book on forgotten crimes of the Allies in WW2 and we make sure and took the trouble to ask for the official permission of referred authors to use their photos or text materials from their works.

I myself wrote to a Walloon SS veteran kameraden to ask his permission to reproduce some of his excerpts in our book.

Just my two cents

JC

[Kiwiwriter]

Boy, I wish somebody over on The History Channel would take this firm stand...when a guy over there reprinted my web page cutting-and-pasting without my permission, and I complained about it...I received a wave of personal attacks and abuse, which went on for a year over there, for having the temerity to protect my work!

And the cut-and-paster then accused me of plagiarism. It got so bad, I even got a death threat over my work! I wonder if Doris Kearns Goodwin and David McCullough have to put up with that...

[Troy Tempest]

So, let me get this right, if someone asks a question about a plane or a tank or a unit or an individual soldier/sailor/aviator or a battle, and I have a book or books that can help the poster with his question, what do I do? Am I not allowed to quote passages or even a whole page or two here or on other similar sites to answer the OP? Do I have to write to the author everytime I want to use his or her work to answer a question or enter into a debate? I am not using the copied material for any financial gain or any other gain at all, except a knowledge sharing gain. Am I breaking the law if I use material from a reference book to answer a question or a series of questions if I haven't asked the authors permission? I have a book by Mark Yerger, am I breaking the law if I post an answer, say, something like this: "according to Mark Yegers book on [insert title here], on pages 117 and 118 he states [insert text here], which backs up/refutes your point". I understand and appreciate the need to protect authors and researchers, but I didn't know that using their work on a site like this or a similar one to pose or answer questions was illegal, and if it is, I don't see how that is hurting the author? If I had to write a letter to every author every time I wanted to refer to his or her work that I have bought when I want to answer someones quest for knowledge, apart from taking who knows how long to get a reply, even if you got one, it sure would slow the pace of these sites and boards down. I hope Mark and co don't think I'm advocating ripping off authors or anything like that, I just don't see how I'm hurting the author by using their work to debate or answer someones question. I'd imagine if I was an author and someone referred to one of my books to answer or debate someone on a baord I'd be pleased! It's not like they're making money off my hard work are they?

Troy

[Groscurth]

[quote="Generalderpanzertruppen"] Am I not allowed to quote passages or even a whole page or two here or on other similar sites to answer the OP? Do I have to write to the author everytime I want to use his or her work to answer a question or enter into a debate? I am not using the copied material for any financial gain or any other gain at all, except a knowledge sharing gain. Am I breaking the law if I use material from a reference book to answer a question or a series of questions if I haven't asked the authors permission?
Troy[/quote]

What we forget here in this debate over the years is that a lot of posters refer to "the law" as the law in the US . Those laws aren't relevant in other countries. I don't know about the US, but the case you describe is not a problem at all in my home country (Belgium) or were I live and work now (France), I can also speak for Holland or Germany. In all those countries you can quote or cut and paste like you say. Off course not for commercial purposes like said.

Best regards and happy new year.

[greenhorn]

What about reproducing books over 50 years old?

What is the copyright regulations covering books/pamphlets produced by individual authors or by institutions (I believe the 50 year rule holds of institutions & the articles publication date).....

[Paddy Keating]

Unfortunately, I am an attorney, and I would dare to hazard a guess that I have more experience in copyright law than the combined membership of this forum. However, if you still feel the need to argue your position as something akin to moral responsibility, or better, a lay person's interpretation of this complex area of law, then again, prosecute your case in your chosen federal forum.

Jason is quite correct. There is no equating piracy to infringement. This forum is dedicated to research, and the vast majority of postings further these educational pursuits. Sorry, this conduct is never an infringement.

Dylan Vigh
BROOKE MAWHORR, P.C.
Indianapolis IN

Hallo Dylan,

Thank you for shining a light on "Fair Use" provisions in copyright legislation. I would say that my knowledge does not equal yours as Law is not my profession but many people with experience of both sides of publishing have or should have a good working knowledge of laws pertaining to copyright, moral rights and intellectual property in general. There is a vast difference between plagiarism or theft of IP and publishing extracts from someone else's work for the purposes of honest reference.

This forum website is free. Some members make occasional or even regular donations towards costs. However, it is essentially a free educational discussion forum frequented by a lot of fairly respectable people, including publishers and authors. If someone posts a scanned page or three from a book or a magazine as a basis for discussion or to illustrate a discussion, this is perfectly alright, even if the author objects. Authors usually only object to this kind of Fair Use if their work is being subjected to criticism that they cannot handle or if they are contrary by nature. The funniest permutation of this kind of situation is when some scallywag of a dealer gets bent out of shape because images from his website or catalogue of an expensive but questionable item are posted and he starts trying to threaten the poster and the website with legal action. The most appropriate response to this involves telling him to go forth and multiply. Where images are concerned, it is polite to give sources but hardly a hanging offence if one doesn't know the source or has forgotten it because the image may be in the public domain and, even if this is not the case, Fair Use provisions usually apply.

The situation is not so clearcut where forum websites whose members pay membership fees are concerned. These are commercial websites. The same applies to any website supported by advertising revenue. This is not to say that Fair Use might not apply but as soon as a medium crosses the line dividing 'free' and 'educational' from 'paying' and 'promotional', you have to be far more careful when it comes to publishing any kind of copyrighted material.

PK

[Troy Tempest]

I will concede that it is probably acceptable to copy a few pages from a book in a library for ones`s own personal use. However, it is not something that I can recall doing myself. What can can vividly recall is literally the weeks that I have spent in archives around the world using a pencil to record information on a legal pad as I studied the original wartime documents. Copier machines were not usually readily available or cost-prohibitive to use. This type of higher-level research is both costly and time-consuming, but is typical for accomplished authors. We are understandably peeved when we receive reports of our work appearing in the publications of others without our permission or even the courtesy of an acknowledgement of the source.

Hi John, what is your stance on photocopying books from a library that are out of print, and may never be reprinted? I found some great info on pre-Roman German history and other info on the First Reich from a book that was published in 1953, long out of print, and the author is probably dead, so is it okay to photocopy whole pages or chapters from a book like that? And if not, why not? If a book is not going to be reprinted again, how would I buy a copy? I have several out of print books on permanent search on ebay, amazon and other places, for years now, with no luck. A copy may never come up for sale, what should I do in these cases? I would gladly buy one if I could, but often it's not possible. What is the correct course of action in these cases? Thanks!

[Paddy Keating]

I think John is, understandably, leery of the whole notion of high resolution copies of books, especially image-led ones. After all, military bookshops and lists seem well-stocked with titles containing images that have clearly been nicked from existing works in this way. There are also a lot of books out there containing plagiarised text. However, preventing people from photocopying or scanning books will not prevent plagiarism and theft of IP.

There is nothing wrong in copying anything by any means, even a feather quill on vellum if you like, as long as it is for your personal use within the parameters of research or education. I see no difference between making a manual copy - by hand - of someone else's text and notes and photographing them. It amounts to the same thing. However, should you make reference to material collected in this way, in your book, pamphlet or college dissertation, you must acknowledge the fact if for no other reason than your own credibility, because plagiarism, like murder, will usually out.

In general, we are talking about copying a portion of some book, a chapter or a few pages that are relevant to your needs. Copying a whole book is usually impractical. However, in the case of unobtainable books, what alternative would you have? I think you can rest assured that there could be no reasonable objections to your doing so. However, you would need to be very careful when handling a rare or unobtainable book and laying the pages sufficiently flat for photocopying or scanning. I would be inclined to photograph them with a good quality digital camera. There is less risk of damaging the spine.

PK

[phylo_roadking]

As said up the thread

Interesting thread........

So let's keep it on-topic.

[dusty825]

Lets burn all the books, problem solved.