Oradour sur Glane and Tulle

[HaEn]

HeEn:

"As before, let's wait till the FACTS come out."


Briefly sub-units of Das Reich herded over 600 women and children into a church and set fire to it. When some of the victims tried to break out of their tomb they were shot by the Germans outside.
By any standards this was a heinous crime and your refusal to accept it with this 'let us wait for the facts' is just another way of saying you have no credible answer to the crime.
I recognise the problem you have in admiting such an evil deed could be committed by your fellow soldiers' but your discomfort can not change the facts.

Hi Mike; I have no problem accepting that something terrible happened there. I also stipulate that a number of SS men (may) have fired upon people running from the church in question. But WHY did that building go up in flames so soon ? I also stipulate that a number of these SS troops may have gone beserk when they had seen what had happened to their comrades. And as before I repeat, WAR is HELL, there is no such thing as a "just" war. As you know there are THREE sides to every story: Yours, Mine and the facts. That these have to stay sealed still, indicates to me that there still is something that cannot see the daylight.
But I concede to you, and will wait, if I live that long, till the facts come out. IF they are not resealed an additional number of years, as is happening in England an the U.S. ( It's called selective history writing )
Regards. HN.
p.s. There WAS a report indicating that the church in question was used by the resistance for storage of gasoline (petrol), explosives, and ammo

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gerhard,

As a point of information, when were you on a train to Russia? My impression from your previous posts was that you "volunteered" in early 1943 and served in the Netherlands, only running into the Red Army in the last weeks of the war when it was already in Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rob - WSSOB]

Hello all - nice to see that's everyone back rested and refreshed from their summer holidays and eager to continue the debate on the longest running feldgrau forum topic in history

As before, let's wait till the FACTS come out. If there were nothing to hide, why seal the records?

Haen, I'd like to know where you get your information regarding the trial records were "sealed." I've just been rereading Sarah Farmer's "Martyred Village" and Max Hasting's "Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France" and can find no reference in either book of the trial transcripts being sealed.

I would also like to point out that Sarah Farmer has based her chapter on the trial from primary source documents, especially legal journals and contemporary newspaper accounts. These accounts are from pretty well-known French media sources, such as Le Monde & Le Figaro.

The journalist from Le Monde who sat IN THE COURTROOM during the trial proceedings was a guy named Jean-Marc Theolleyre, who wrote DAILY dispatches of the trial proceedings which were published in the paper. Theolleyre mentions that not only were several other members of the press present at the trial, but that 50 members of the public were allowed to watch the trial, as long as they didn't mind standing. All of this is covered starting at page 149 and footnote #39 of Ms. Farmer's book.

I haven't seen any documentation to back up your claim and would be very interested to hear it. But then I would challenge - what does it matter? Records are sealed to a trial that was THE French media sensation in 1953, with trial dispatches being published as front page news daily?

Why would one "seal" trial proceedings that were published contemporary media news outlets, and thus available in on microfiche in any public library in France?

What concerns me about this "sealed records" argument is it's conspiratorial bent. It's an assertion that many people would assume true even if evidence (such as 1953 Bordeau Trail newspaper accounts in Le Monde) indicate otherwise.

[Rob - WSSOB]

There WAS a report indicating that the church in question was used by the resistance for storage of gasoline (petrol), explosives, and ammo

Then name it - give author, data, book title, microfilm roll, etc.

But most reports about Oradour - Phillip Vickers, Max Hastings and Sarah Farmer's books spring to mind immediately, all AGREE that there was no Resistance activity at Oradour-sur-Glane. Even the former Resistence fighter veterans, including the "evil" Communist ones, asserted postwar that there were no Resistance activities at Oradour.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

With regard to "sealed records".

Several months ago someone posted about similar "sealed records" concerning the alleged repulse of a German landing in East Anglia using flaming oil in 1940.

I was going to the Public Records Office and asked for details of the file numbers so that I could check if they really existed and, if so, whether they really were sealed.

The original proposer of the "sealed records" theory never got back to me. This reluctance to face hard facts is fairly typical of the conspiracy theorist mentality.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It seems unlikely that the conspiracy theorists will ever be satisfied on this or anything else.

If the "sealed records" do not exist, in 2017 they will cry that they were destroyed.

If in 2017 they turn out to support the case against the Waffen-SS they will cry, "Of course, the authorities have had sixty years to doctor them."

Personally I am a believer in the "Cock-up" theory of history. It almost always fits the facts better.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Saar]

If the "sealed records" do not exist, in 2017 they will cry that they were destroyed.

If in 2017 they turn out to support the case against the Waffen-SS they will cry, "Of course, the authorities have had sixty years to doctor them."


Sid.

That is what you would do if you were 'They'. Fortunately many people are not like you. Will see if any of your 'IFs' are true.

[ratdog]

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////BANNED

[Gerhard]

Hi Sid:
You are partly right.
After volunteering I joined SS-Flak Ausbildungs Ersatz Abt. stationed at Arolsen near Munich a few days after my 17th Birthday.
There I received basic and gun training, my particular job distance measuring. I believe most of our batteries (all guys my age) were earmarked for the 12th Div. Lucky me went East instead of West. By train my batterie arrived at a place I barely remember and certainly can't pronounce. Sysscheka or some name like it. After spending the winter chasing around, freezing my nuts off, getting acquainted with Machorka, Stalin chocolate, not forgetting the Stalin Organ I must have offended some Russians and I got a free ride to the hospital. That was in 1944 and after putting in some time in the Cripple batterie in Arolsen Gruppenführer Kammler needed me more then Gruppenführer Gille.
After leaving Holland I met my Russian friends again which I so fondly remembered.
The rest you know
A guy I have been corresponding with mentioned a ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times!"
It certainly was not boring.

Incidentally it started again, I had 42 messages, most of them containing a virus in my e-Mail at 9:00 A.M. this morning.

[Rob - WSSOB]

Hi Gerhard -

My condolences regarding your computer trouble. I wanted to point out that most self-replicating viruses nowadays, including the recent "So.Big" virus will often "spoof" sender email addresses - in other words, insert a random email address into the "from" field.

It's more than likely that Michael Kenny didn't send you a virus, (or at least didn't intentionally send you a virus, if his computer was infected) These viruses will search email address lists to find email addresses to place in the "to" and the "from" fields. What probably happened is that the virus infected someone's computer that has the email address for both you and Michael Kenny in an email program address list, and used your addresses in its quest to replicate.

It is also entirely possible that other people are getting infected messages that have your email address in the "from" field.

Isn't the 2003 internet fun!

There are a couple of steps you can do to protect yourself, including

1) don't use Microsoft Outlook (many of the viruses are designed to exploit flaws in Outlook or the MS OS in general)

2) Don't use address lists

3) Automatically delete messages with certain type of attachments - pif, .exe, .bat etc.

4. Don't open a message from a person you don't know with an
attachment. NEVER open the attachment. Never open an email with a goofy title like "So Cool, So Flash"

5. Most importantly, buy a anti-virus program for your computer and update it regularly. Symantec (http://www.symantec.com/) and McAfee (http://us.mcafee.com/default.asp) are two well-known brands of
antivirus software.

Good luck fixing things! -- Rob

[Gerhard]

Like I mentioned several times before, not having been there all I can do is to make a guess.
One poster mentioned "I also stipulate that a number of these SS troops may have gone berserk when they had seen what had happened to their comrades".
That makes a lot of sense. We are now looking back from our safe and comfortable lives and and see this as a absolutely heinous war crime, which it was. But we do not know the mind set and reason for the actions of those involved. As SS men we always received special treatment from all our enemies. This does not excuse or minimize this tragedy, it should never happened. But remember what did a life, yours or mine mean in those days ?
I am also certain the men responsible were held accountable, including some who had nothing to do with it. That's the way it was then and maybe we all can learn from it so it does not happen again.
I am hoping anyway.

Rob - Thanks for the advise and good wishes -
I am OK now but all those messages coming in takes forever, with my mail program it takes up to 15 minutes just for a dozen to come in.

[Gerhard]

Hello Sid:
I forgot to mention my 17th Birthday was March 1943 (a date I did not forget) and that was when the Reichs Heinie gave me as a Birthday present a 98K a nice new uniform, including camping equipment but unfortunately forgot it gets a little colder in Russia.

[Abteilung]

Perhaps it is hidden somewere in this topic but please don't let me go through 29 pages

Did the Maquis really kidnap and kill that officer named Kampfe? Nobody by that name is listed by the VDK.

[Marko]

Nachname: Kämpfe
Vorname: Helmut
Dienstgrad: Sturmbannführer
Geburtsdatum: 31.07.1909
Geburtsort: Jena
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 10.06.1944
Todesort: Cheissoux

Helmut Kämpfe ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Berneuil (Frankreich) .
Endgrablage: Block 1 Reihe 6 Grab 176

[Abteilung]

Okay, so his name was Kämpfe instead of Kampfe. Thank you!

[Craig Soward]

Hans Schmidt also discusses a different version of events, than those more traditionally talked about, in his book SS PANZERGRENADIER.