SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.
John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:17 pm

Thanks for that observation Mike.

Now for some more pages.
SS-PVB-Nov-1944---37.jpg
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John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:19 pm

I wonder why these Belgian and French officers were given "Waffen"-Ustuf. ranks. Were they less germanic than the Dutch or Finns?
SS-PVB-Nov-1944---38.jpg
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nicoH
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by nicoH » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:56 am

several posts ago the question was raised why some dutch officers in the Waffen-SS did recieve SS-numbers and others not. Also raised was the question why officers from one nation were named as Waffen-Führer or SS-Führer . I can only comment for the Dutch officers.

Question one is a simple one; They became members of the German Schutzstaffel and thus were given SS-Numbers. After they had been taken into the SS as SS-Mann they were promoted to SS-Ustuf/ostuf der Waffen-SS and asigned to a unit.
It is interesting to know that several of these officers, who had also been taken in the German SS, later also became member of the Germanic SS in the Netherlands.
This last thing also happened the other way round, i.e. dutch gemanic SS members later became member of the german SS (best known is JH Feldmeijer, Dutch SS-number 1, german ss number 440 001)

As to question 2: why were some officers called Waffen-Fhr and not SS-Fhr or vice versa.
This is in my view a unimportant issue, and an issue which is highly confusing. Known are dutch SS-Officers, who are Waffen-Fhr , even though they were members of the germanic SS in the Netherlands, which applied the same SS-laws regarding the genealogy of person as the german SS. So it appears to me if one is accepted for the Germanic SS in the Netherlands, one should not be classified when entering the WSS as a Waffen-Fhr.

I myself find this part of the issue a non-issue, as the most important thing to me, is whether or not a person became an officer, and not if his rank is prefixed with SS, or Frw,or Waffen, or Legion. .


nico

leib1
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by leib1 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:32 am

Thanks for posting John,
why on the ss-untersturmfuhrer list's its there d.o.b rather than ss number
is there a reason ?
Best Jamie

John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:03 pm

Nico - Thanks for your very good comments and I agree that it does not make sense to make such distinctions. It would appear that they were creating different classes of officers which is understandable in the case of Aktiv and Reserve officers, but not when it is based on the degree of how "germanic" someone is.

Jamie - I believe that the reason here on this list is that most Untersturmführers did not have an SS number at the time of their appointment. I often see documents in their files where they are given an SS number shortly after promotion to Untersturmführer. I think that just about everyone had an SS number in the 1930s and that is why you find most people on Untersturmführer promotion lists prior to 1941 had SS numbers next to their names.

leib1
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by leib1 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:48 am

Hi John,
i have lists of lssah men sighning for there Wehrpasses with Wehr-Nr along side there names
would this be there service numbers?Doe's this mean you only got an ss number if you became an officer?
Best Jamie

John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:28 am

Jamie - Wehr numbers and SS numbers were separate matters and I don't believe that there was any connection between the two. About SS numbers I can only say that after looking through thousands of officer and enlisted perssonnel files and other period documents that everybody in the SS up to 1939 or 1940 appeared to have an SS number assigned to them, except for members of the SS-Polizei Division that was formed in September 1939. I suspect that as the SS expanded after 1940 the practise of giving SS numbers to all members of the Waffen-SS was discontinued. And then we observe where many newly-appointed officers were given "conditional" SS numbers with a (V) suffix.

Here are some more pages from the promotion list.
SS-PVB-Nov-1944---39.jpg
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John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:29 am

next
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leib1
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by leib1 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:19 pm

Thanks John

John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:12 am

These are the final pages of the promotion list.
SS-PVB-Nov-1944---41.jpg
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John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:13 am

next
Attachments
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John P. Moore
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:14 am

final page and note the Untersturmführers with SS numbers!
SS-PVB-Nov-1944---43.jpg
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-michael
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by -michael » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:38 am

Can somebody help me to indentify the identity or ‘volksangehörigkeit’ of the in this ‘Personalveränderungsblatt’ mentioned participants of the ‘4. Lehrgang für germanische Offiziere’? I thought first that all participants with German sounding names where ‘Volksdeutscher’, but some of them seem to be born in Germany, so this suggest that they where ‘Reichsdeutscher’?

(Aktieve SS-Untersturmführern)

Bongen, Josef 8.5.1920
Gordon, Ib 15.5.1923
Loidl, Hans 23.5.1914
Simhart, Gustav 7.9.1904
Staargaard, Willem 2.4.1918 Holländer
Thornberg, Ove 23.12.1921

(SS-Untersturmführern der Reserve)

Becker, Dr. Paul 12.12.1908
Becker, Wolfgang 2.1.1916
Besoke, Max 11.5.1913
Blindauer, Egon 22.9.1907
Boeckler, Karl 6.4.1911
Bosse, Erik 4.7.1908
Böttcher, Erich 20.11.1911
Buchs, Alfred 11.7.1908
Busse, Friedrich 28.4.1913
Busse, Kurt 1.4.1914
Callebaut, August 13.2.1918 Flame
Christ, Johann 3.2.1905
Claasen, Erich 6.1.1916
Cless, Herbert 30.3.1910
Dibowski, Otto 27.8.1901
Eckmann, Wilhelm 9.1.1906
Eikermann, Reinhard 15.10.1911
Ensch, Albert 26.11.1914 Flame
Förster, Alfred 27.6.1908
Forster, Franz 8.8.1908
Freisitzer, Leopold 2.11.1920
Frischmann, Otto 2.1.1915
Geenhoven, van Eduard 21.11.1910 Flame
Gnuschke, Heinz 23.12.1909
Goeser, Anton 6.10.1919
Gräbeldinger, Anton 21.10.1919
Gramlich, Rudolf 6.6.1908
Gründel, Karl 19.8.1907
Grüner, Otto 20.4.1910
Gyssens, Ferdinand 27.9.1920 Flame
Hanten, Dr. Alfred 10.9.1905
Hein, Kurt 22.12.1905
Heinl, Hans 25.1.1907
Hofer, Franz 28.3.1911
Hovius, Gerard 27.9.1910 Holländer
Janik, Johannes 13.3.1914
Jans, Albert 7.1.1916 Flame
Jost, Otmar 18.1.1908
Karpati, Karl 17.2.1915
Kaven, Dr. Archibald 14.11.1908
Kessler, Rudolf 11.11.1908
Kirchmaier, Hans 22.4.1908
Kleef, van Konrad 7.7.1909
Kosch, Gustav 3.6.1908
Kubin, Wilhelm 7.1.1906
Kuchenbächer, Dr. Karl 24.9.1907
Kusebauch, Dr. Kurt 23.6.1914
Kvammen, Birger 4.5.1919 Norweger
Lammers, Karl 10.11.1906
Lange, Hans 30.7.1910
Leimich, Hans 25.10.1905
Mayer, Sepp 29.12.1911
Meyer, Johannes 24.6.1912
Mieth, Hans 19.6.1911
Migge, Gert 25.2.1908
Nagy, Emmerich 11.2.1916
Oppitz, Karl 2.10.1907
Patzak, Valentin 9.1.1912
Peter, Friedrich 27.7.1912
Pfeiffer, Hartmut 23.10.1907
Pieschl, Karl 28.7.1917
Pös, Anton 24.12.1919
Ramming, Herbert 8.3.1904
Reiser, Frans 19.1.1920
Roth, Hermann 11.4.1909
Ruppert, Karl 24.6.1918
Sacksofsky, Hans 24.3.1909
Saß, Karl-Friedrich 20.2.1913
Schaeppi, Benno 24.11.1911 Schweizer
Schiller, Heinz 9.6.1912
Schneider, Gustav 2.6.1910
Schneider, Heinz 12.1.1917
Schroedl, Robert 5.11.1916
Schultz, Dr. Bruno 3.8.1901
Schulz, Konrad 27.5.1914
Schürmann, Otto 22.4.1906
Spannraft, Michael 22.6.1914
Speicher, Georg 23.3.1907
Strandmann, Fred 7.7.1919
Terrey, Walter 31.3.1909
Tröstl, Ferdinand 5.4.1911
Uhlyarik, Dr. Egon 16.6.1914
Ulrich, Dr. Herbert 28.5.1912
Vuchetich, von Paul 1.12.1917
Wolf, Alfred 8.2.1912
Wolfram von Wolmar, Wolfgang 9.6.1910
Wurtz, Johann 16.7.1908

(Waffen-Untersturmführern)

Brett, Karl 11.6.1924 Estländer
Külari, Ruubo 19.1.1918 Estländer
Linde, Wiswaldis 13.1.1909
Maldar, Koit 17.5.1919 Estländer
Mardi, Martin 25.11.1923 Estländer
Pajos, Arnold 1.12.1909 Estländer
Prangel, Evald 17.8.1922 Estländer
Renno, Kuno 20.9.1923 Estländer
Silm, Elmar 24.11.1913 Estländer
Simakov, Georg 28.3.1919 Estländer
Sova, Richard 25.12.1922 Estländer
Tasur, Paul 16.8.1911 Estländer
Trauss, Eduard 11.10.1919 Estländer
Uuslail, Vambola 13.10.1923 Estländer
Vaabel, Viktor 17.2.1920 Estländer
Walter, Alter 20.12.1909 Estländer

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: SS-Personalveränderungsblatt November 1944

Post by Jan-Hendrik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:12 am

Franz Fiala was a former Heeres-Leutnant that was transferred to SS-Pz.Rgt.12.

:[]

Jan-Hendrik

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