How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.
User avatar
Tom Houlihan
Patron
Posts: 4301
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:05 pm
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Tom Houlihan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:43 am

How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?


The last few posts have been about the Hitlerjugend. Might we somehow get back on track with the original question? Heaven knows, there are enough opinions about the quality of the Waffen-SS at varying stages of the war.

Did the varying degrees of militarization of the HJ impact the original question? Surely! If that is the desired topic of discussion, by all means start a new thread. Let's keep this on on topic, s'il vous plait?!
TLH3
www.mapsatwar.us
Feldgrau für alle und alle für Feldgrau!

gerhard2
Supporter
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:13 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by gerhard2 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:36 am

Andre
This constant, just because some avid readers of the usual propaganda klap-trap say it happened like that therefore it must have happened like for that everyone is tiresome.
Read my previous post "How on earth can anyone compare the Hitler jugend of up to 1943 with the Hitler jugend of 1944 till wars end" again. That alone makes many of your statement .pretty ludicrous especially when you state:
"Are we now going to simply pretend that, for example, 12 SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend didn’t exist, that elements of the HJ didn’t fight in Berlin, and that HJ units didn’t serve amongst anti-aircraft crews?"
Incidentally I remember, it must have been in the last few ay's of April or early May 1945 on the way back to our staging area. Just the sgt major and me we saw cars driven by civilians loaded with weapons (short Italian rifles), grenades and M30 panzer faust handing out to anyone who would taske them. The only ones taking them were kids sometime chased by their mothers.
If that was the usual thing in what was left of Germany I don't know, just what I saw and I am certain this did not happen before the middle of 1944.
I have a suggestion for you, google "Connors, Michael F. - Dealing in Hate and try and read it with an open mind".
Gerhard

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:13 am

Tom Houlihan wrote:
The last few posts have been about the Hitlerjugend. Might we somehow get back on track with the original question? Heaven knows, there are enough opinions about the quality of the Waffen-SS at varying stages of the war.
Tom,

It might be worthwhile splitting the HJ stuff and putting into a different thread.

Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:16 am

gerhard2 wrote:Andre
This constant, just because some avid readers of the usual propaganda klap-trap say it happened like that therefore it must have happened like for that everyone is tiresome.
Read my previous post "How on earth can anyone compare the Hitler jugend of up to 1943 with the Hitler jugend of 1944 till wars end" again. That alone makes many of your statement .pretty ludicrous especially when you state:
"Are we now going to simply pretend that, for example, 12 SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend didn’t exist, that elements of the HJ didn’t fight in Berlin, and that HJ units didn’t serve amongst anti-aircraft crews?"
Incidentally I remember, it must have been in the last few ay's of April or early May 1945 on the way back to our staging area. Just the sgt major and me we saw cars driven by civilians loaded with weapons (short Italian rifles), grenades and M30 panzer faust handing out to anyone who would taske them. The only ones taking them were kids sometime chased by their mothers.
If that was the usual thing in what was left of Germany I don't know, just what I saw and I am certain this did not happen before the middle of 1944.
I have a suggestion for you, google "Connors, Michael F. - Dealing in Hate and try and read it with an open mind".
Gerhard
Gerhard,

As I have explained, everyone’s experience was different. You state that you underwent no military training whatsoever in your Hitler Youth section, even as late as 1943. My research and study into this area shows that wasn’t the common experience for many others also serving in the Hitlerjugend. I’ve never stated that what you wrote is untrue or a fabrication. All I am stating is that just because you experienced that doesn’t mean the 8+million other HJ members experienced exactly the same.

I have demonstrated that it was written in the Decree of 1936 that a fundamental aim of the Hitler Youth was to train German youth for National Service. I have also demonstrated that some other HJ members claimed they did undergo fairly extensive pre-military training in their units.

There is a mass of evidence that members of the HJ were under-going pre-military training, and not just after 1943. For example, In 1937, a Hitler Youth rifle school was established. About 1.5 million boys were trained in rifle shooting and military field exercises over the next few years with over 50,000 boys earning a marksmanship medal that required near perfect shooting at a distance of 50 meters. I also mentioned the Preliminary Training Camps.

Regards,

André

PS: Your mentioning of “propaganda claptrap” reminded of a very useful website I sometimes use for reference. Below is a link to a German Propaganda archive, specifically relating to material from a booklet issued to Hitler Youth Leaders to convey Nazi racial thinking to impressionable young HJ members.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hjhandbuch.htm

It could literally be the definition of “propaganda claptrap”.
Last edited by Cott Tiger on Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Up The Tigers!

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:21 am

phylo_roadking wrote:
My argument about the similarity of the HJ to other period youth organisations is the balance of fieldcraft vs. other types of...learning...and the level of paramilitary-style organisation applied to each movement. 1933-39 and on into the first years of the war, the time split between fieldcraft and learning/drilling was roughly similar.
Phylo,

What evidence do have that supports your above claim?

All the evidence I have come across (some of which I have posted on here) points to a very different conclusion. Hitler Youth members, especially after 1936 underwent far more extensive pre-military training than the Boy Scouts did.

Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!

Matthias Fritz
Almost banned
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:48 am
Location: Slovenija

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Matthias Fritz » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:02 am

Yust one question regarding 12 SS HJ Divison, where did they receved such god quality trening that they coud fught so weal ?

Matthias

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:03 am

Andre - you seem predicated on the Boy Scouts, I'm not; actually, ALL uniformed youth organisations came into this category.
What evidence do have that supports your above claim?
Regarding pre-military training? Several family members during the immediate pre-war period - not just as boys but as organisers. And my father in the immediate POST-war period in the BB. You'll note that I've also posted evidence that there was VERY considerable debate at national level both inside the Scouts AND OUTSIDE in the community over the degree of militarism in its organisation at an earlier date. Would you also disagree that Army Cadets, Sea Scouts etc. are "pre-military training"?
All the evidence I have come across (some of which I have posted on here) points to a very different conclusion
I've seen you post evidence about the militarism of the HJ - but I haven't yet seen you post ANYTHING about British youth organistions including the Boy Scouts, Army Cabets, Boys Brigade....

Quite frankly - I regard ANY organisation that mandates uniforms for members, sets its OWN disciplinary system, and practices ANY form of military-like drill as well as teaching fieldcraft can been seen as "pre-military"...given that none of these have any appropriate place later in a NON-military adult world...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:31 am

Finally - took some finding. Here is ONE of the Mitchell & Kenyon films...this one dating from 1904....

Watch carefully at 4.11 and the ten seconds following....!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jhkwcNjXkc

THAT looks to me like the BB - children - parading with RIFLES....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:09 pm

Phylo,

I wouldn’t disagree that the Army Cadets and Sea Scouts involved elements of pre-military training (indeed they still do). Just as I didn’t dispute 17 year-olds joined the British Home Guard. I also don’t deny that, unlike in Germany, there was indeed concern over some elements of this militarization.

The initial argument was that there was basically little or no difference between the Boy Scouts and the Hitlerjugend. I believe it has been demonstrated that there was far more political and racial indoctrination and much more pre-military training the HJ than there was in the Boy Scouting movement.
This combined with the fact that the HJ was compulsory (post 36’) and elements of it not only performed active war-time duties but actually served in active front line combat roles clearly shows that there were huge differences between the two organizations.

Regarding the Boy Scout footage you posted. By the 1930’s the Boy Scout movement had changed and substantially evolved from it’s formative years back in the early 1900’s. Initially it was indeed a pre-military organization and was heavily militaristic. However, by the 1930’s a lot of this had been toned down and the movement had largely evolved into a non-military organization. However, as I have already said it still did have some military methods and practices.
The closest it ever came to war-time duties were the “Boy Scout Blitz Volunteers”

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 7652.shtml

However, the scope and scale of military involvement of this tiny minority of Boy Scout volunteers simply does not compare to those carried out by the HJ.

Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:21 pm

This combined with the fact that the HJ was compulsory (post 36’) and elements of it not only performed active war-time duties but actually served in active front line combat roles clearly shows that there were huge differences between the two organizations.
Andre - why do you seem intent on ignoring the effect that the the making-compulsory of HJ membership in 1936 FAILED??? It had to to be repeated TWICE - and STILL remained far from universal.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:36 pm

phylo_roadking wrote:
This combined with the fact that the HJ was compulsory (post 36’) and elements of it not only performed active war-time duties but actually served in active front line combat roles clearly shows that there were huge differences between the two organizations.
Andre - why do you seem intent on ignoring the effect that the the making-compulsory of HJ membership in 1936 FAILED??? It had to to be repeated TWICE - and STILL remained far from universal.
Phylo,

Because the making of membership compulsory (whether it worked or not) was indicative of the type of organization that the Hitlerjugend was becoming. It was changing from singing folk songs around the campfires and hiking to pre-military training and political and racial indoctrination. Any pretence of innocence was lost when children or parents were no longer given a choice.

As I have pointed out the 1936 Decree not only made membership compulsory, it clearly spelt out what it’s main objectives were:
The mission of the HJ is to train all German Youth, physically, mentally and morally for national service in the spirit of National Socialism. School and home are subordinated to the interests of the State.
Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:50 pm

Because the making of membership compulsory (whether it worked or not) was indicative of the type of organization that the Hitlerjugend was becoming
No. It was indicative of how the NSDAP gradually took control of ALL other "organisations" - no matter what their aim, membership or ethos.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

Cott Tiger
Associate
Posts: 856
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:44 am
Location: England

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Cott Tiger » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:42 pm

phylo_roadking wrote:
Because the making of membership compulsory (whether it worked or not) was indicative of the type of organization that the Hitlerjugend was becoming
No. It was indicative of how the NSDAP gradually took control of ALL other "organisations" - no matter what their aim, membership or ethos.
I disagree. The Nazi’s were always in total control of the Hitlerjugend. It was their organization right from it's very concept. Making membership of the HJ compulsory meant that the Nazi totalitarian regime could use the organization as yet another tool to exert control over it’s people.

Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:00 pm

The Nazi’s were always in total control of the Hitlerjugend. It was their organization right from it's very concept. Making membership of the HJ compulsory meant that the Nazi totalitarian regime could use the organization as yet another tool to exert control over it’s people
Yes - but you're missing something. Scouting was closed down in Germany in 1934-35 and all members obligated to join the HJ BEFORE membership of the HJ was made compulsory. Thus you can see that its getting all aspects of life under control that came first, rather than the USING of that control. It could be used for something ONCE it was "total coverage"...or rather once any viable alternative channels for kids had been removed.

And there's ONE important fact to remember about the HJ division; how many 16-18 year olds were recruited for it??? and when? In 1943...

When you drill down into the responsibilities of the Home Guard, for instance - the British government was giving FAR more 17-18 year olds a military role FAR earlier than the HJ was - AND in 1942 with the NAtional Service Act that military service became universal and compulsory. Exactly what percentage of German 16-18 year olds were cycled through 12th SS-Pz "Hitler Jugend" in 1943? It certainly wasn't 100%...as the ideal was in the UK in 1942...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

User avatar
Andy H
Associate
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:01 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

Post by Andy H » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:47 am

the responsibilities of the Home Guard, for instance - the British government was giving FAR more 17-18 year olds a military role FAR earlier than the HJ was - AND in 1942 with the NAtional Service Act that military service became universal and compulsory. Exactly what percentage of German 16-18 year olds were cycled through 12th SS-Pz "Hitler Jugend" in 1943? It certainly wasn't 100%...as the ideal was in the UK in 1942..
Hi Phylo

The scenario your comparing are not alike. Yes the British were giving the 17-18 olds a far greater military role in the Home Guard than the HJ at that time, BUT given the circumstances (threat of invasion) its hardly surprising.

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die

Post Reply