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Phylo,phylo_roadking wrote:The Home Guard's bottom age limit in the UK was "officially" 17...with literally hundreds of listed exceptions locally of 16 year-olds in the ranks. Conscription into the British Army officially began at 18 - so it can be said that the British ALSO had "children" - not of legal majority - carrying out active war-time duties. By the way - are you aware that in the last two years of the Home Guards' existence in the UK before Stand-down in December 1944...under the 1942 National Service Act membership of the Home Guard at 17 was ALSO COMPULSORY??? And in the UK there was NO 10-20% avoiding it!!!it’s child members conducted active war-time duties, were used as reserve manpower-pool and as we all know were eventually used as front-line combat troops.
As for the militarism of the Boy Scouts...even THEY realised it!!! And had to do something about it...
Hi Hans,Hans wrote: Andre,
There may have been some differences. However the aim was the same and that was/is to subvert the young to the will of the State. If Gerhard and many other members of the organisations devoted to youth eg. H.J., BDM, Boy Scouts, Jung Volk, Boys Brigades, School Cadet Units etc,. etc. are amiss in their appreciation of what was/is going on then of course I have been lied to, and you Andre of course are right. I can't help thinking however that I am right in remembering my primary & secondary education here in the land down under in the 50s which relied heavily on racism and anti Judaism. Then there was my military service in the 60s which certainly tried to convince me that if you were Asian you were somehow less than a human being. Actualy I was quite dismayed at what they all tried to teach me and luckily had my German mother and Polish stepfather to deprogram me. Incidently my mother belonged to a Catholic Youth Group and never had pressure put on her to join anything else. Then again the photos could also be a figment.
Then again, my university lecturers must also have lied to me and thus alas my many years of tertiary education have been wasted on me and my fellows. Damn, and here I am a British subject, and thought I knew it all, by divine right.
Ah well, really the only thing I ever learned is that I know nothing, but at least nothing is something, therefore ....... .
Back to the tons of paper - why I bother I don't know. Bound to be all a fabrication.
Regards,Up to now a being a soldier meant being a man. And being a man means being able to father a child. Wasting these boys before they reach maturity obviously runs against some fundamental law of nature, against our instinct, against every drive to preserve the species. Like certain fish or insects that eat their own offspring. People aren’t supposed to do that. The fact that this exactly what we are doing is a sure sign of madness
No, Andre - if you look back through the thread I'm talking about under-military age service during the war in Britain. It was at certain non-adult ages as compulsory as in Germany....AND was far more rigorously policed as far as I can see. There was no de facto "get-out" for compsulory service at 17 as there was in Germany....IF despite the verious attempts to enforce compulsory membership of the HJ...you simply weren't in it!As we all know the British Home Guard was a military defence organization. The Boy Scout movement was not, hence I don’t see how bringing it up here is entirely relevant. Most if not all modern armies enlist/recruit people in their eighteenth year of age (i.e.17). As we all know, the Hitlerjugend differentiates itself as children as young as twelve were eventually seeing front-line combat.
So the argument stands. The Boy Scouts, unlike the HJ, were not a compulsory paramilitary organisation of a political party and it’s member were not put on active war-time duties and they certainly didn’t see any front line combat of any kind. These are clear and fundamental differences
Yes - but you're forgetting something. AS OF WWII...in Britain anyway...what was the age of majority??? 21Most if not all modern armies enlist/recruit people in their eighteenth year of age (i.e.17)
Conversely - I know my father in the later 1940's enjoyed range time with a .22 with HIS "organisation" - the BB when on Summer Camp on the Isle of Man! It was regarded as a special treat and reserved for "camp".Hans mentioned Klein kaliber drill. Well I did not handle a gun, .22 or otherwise until basic training after joining up.
THE FIRST WORLD WAR
In 1914, the first World War, there was a big expansion of the Cadet Force, the War Office took over the administration, and continued until 1923 when control and administration reverted to the Territorial Army Associations. In that year 1923, the government ceased to recognise the Cadet Force, taking away all financial support. This was a very difficult period for everyone, but the voluntary spirit that had been it's greatest strength in the early days, once again came to the surface. Everything that was required had to be paid for by individuals, and even the wearing of Regimental badges and buttons was forbidden, it certainly was a difficult and unhappy time.
BRITISH NATIONAL CADET ASSOCIATION (BNCA)
Trying to keep the Cadet Force alive and at the same time to get back government support, brought about the formation of the BNCA (British National Cadet Association). By 1932 the BNCA had gained recognition and achieved some measure of success, and was allowed - under the guidance of the Territorial Army Associations - to run the Cadet Force.
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
Shortly after the start of the Second World War (1939 - 1945) saw a massive expansion of all the Cadet Forces, not only the Army Cadet and Sea Cadets, but included the formation of the Air Training Corps. By 1942 the War Office - known today as the Ministry of Defence - took over the administration of the ACF once again, giving it support beyond the members wildest dreams. Uniforms were provided - free, they had rifles issued, although they were from the Boer War period!, camps were set up and assistance given to help run them and train the Cadets. The War Certificate 'A' Parts 1 and 2 were then the Proficiency Tests for training, with the red star worn on the arm of uniforms similar to your APC blue stars of today. At one period there were more than 140,000 Army Cadets serving, though not without problems to find officers and instructors to run the cadet detachments throughout the country. Most fit and able bodied men were already in the forces or committed members of the Home Guard or other Emergency Services. Working hours for the civilian population were extended to help the 'war effort', few people had spare time to be involved with Cadets or for that matter any other activities.
The early months of the 1939‑45 war were a matter of ‘shadow boxing’. This period of the 'Phoney War' (as it became known) ended with stunning suddenness when the enemy launched the blitzkrieg. In a matter of weeks nearly all Europe, from Norway to the South of France, was under German occupation. The analogy with 1860 was inescapable: the Army in disarray and the threat of the invasion immanent. 1860 brought about the birth of the cadet movement: 1940 was to bring about its expansion to undreamed of heights.
The expansion was ordered in 1941 and was put in hand by County Territorial Associations. Units sprang up almost overnight, many of them based on boys' clubs, which provided recruits, premises and sometimes leaders in one package. There was a great air of improvisation in the early days, and some units were virtually private armies. The title 'Cadet Force' was changed to 'Army Cadet Force' and Officers were commissioned by Lord Lieutenants.
Everything had to be provided by privately raised money and even the wearing of Regimental badges were forbidden. Fortunately a voluntary body known as the British National Cadet Association (BNCA) was formed to run the Cadet Force and regain its official recognition.
In 1932, official recognition was restored and by 1936 certain services and small grants were provided but it took World War Two to make the War Office fully accept the Cadet Force again. In January 1942 there was another big expansion. The War Office took over the organisation, equipment and accommodation of the ACF. They also increased grants and free uniforms were authorised.
Gradually this spirited but often unruly force was brought under closer control. Most Companies (as detachments were then called) were organised into battalions, often 800 to 1,000 strong. County Regiments, to which Battalions were badged, provided permanent staff instructors. Capitation grants had been introduced, and TA Associations put finance on a firm basis. Regular Army units with their war commitments could give little help with training (though permanent establishments such as Infantry Training Centres gave valuable assistance with camps and courses). The main professional support was provided by 'Travelling Wings', each consisting of about half a dozen officers, WO’s and NCOs drawn from a variety of units and arms. By 1944 the ACF had shaken down into a well‑organised body providing many recruits for the forces, a fairly high proportion of whom became officers and NCOs
Source: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hitler_youth.htmIn 1936, the writer J R Tunus wrote about the activities of the Hitler Jugend. He stated that part of their "military athletics" (Wehrsport) included marching, bayonet drill, grenade throwing, trench digging, map reading, gas defence, use of dugouts, how to get under barbed wire and pistol shooting.
Source: http://colanmc.siu.edu/clockwork/papers/p1.htmlThe Preliminary Training Camp was another program of Hitler Youth. The directors of the camp often were wounded army officers and SS veterans that had prior experience in the Hitler Youth. Boys aged sixteen to eighteen were required to attend a twenty-one day concentrated training. This program was Hitlerís idea of psychological training for military combat. In some ways the training could compare to basic training, it was even more brutal than camps for older boys that were drafted. The main goals were to acquire combat readiness and combat capacity.
Source: http://www.paperlessarchives.com/hitler_youth.html (my highlighting)The Decree of December 1, 1936, providing for Reichsjugenddienstpflicht (Compulsory Youth Service), completely destroyed all remaining youth organizations. The decree contained three major points: 1. All German youth shall join the HJ. 2. The mission of the HJ is to train all German Youth, physically, mentally and morally for national service in the spirit of National Socialism. School and home are subordinated to the interests of the State. 3. The Reichsjugendführer (Reich Youth Leader) is entrusted with all phases of the education of German youth and is responsible only the Fuhrer.
I have only second edition of The 12th SS so I am not sure about the training, however I believe the timeTo state that the HJ had no programs for military training or duties is simply ludicrous
John,John P. Moore wrote:Funk & Wagnalls' dictionary has the following definition of Paramilitary - "Having a military structure although not officially military; capable of becoming, replacing or supplementing a military force: said of certain political movements, etc" Therefore, it would seem to be a bit of a stretch to consider the Hitler Jugend to be a paramilitary organization.