How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?

[Matthias Fritz]

We are all hearing how fereless, and exelent fighters were waffen SS solders and i can belive that for the start of 2 WW and even later on in Russia but if you count their havy loses, my questions are how elite were waffen SS solders from elite german waffen SS divisions such as Leibstandarte, Das Raich, Totenkopf, etc, where did they get new solders, how weal were they treined comparing to waffen SS solders from 1940 - 42 ?

Another thing that buders me is why did waffen SS officers used thier man is such stupid maner that so many early divisons were acualy completly wiped out, since all officers at early stage of war come directly from god SS yunker schuls ( Bad Tolz, etc ) or transferd as carier move from Wermacht, so why they act so carelenes towords thier man ?

Another thing are yungsters from 12 SS Hitler Yugend which were real bad new for alies solders, specialy Canadains, i belive that this teens were only elite waffen SS solders left since they steal belive the naci propaganda and they didnt care if they lose their lifes, they yust live to fight as they were trained since they were smal boys !!!

So please compare SS AH Leibstandarte solder from 1940 with Leibstandarte SS solder from 1945 ???


Matthias

[haen2]

At the last part of the war ???? Oh boy were we ever "elite"
I think, other than the veterans who had experienced frontline duty before, or had gone through real training, most new recruits had to fullfil THREE requirements.
1. Does he breathe ?
2. Can he walk ?
3. Does he have at least one eye, so he can see and take aim with a weapon ?
A little sarcasm ? You bet. but actually in spite of all this we held fast till the bitter end.
Probably not the answer you were looking for.
Oh well.
HN

[gerhard2]

Hi HaEn
Nice to see you feel better enough to be back here.
You got it right, maybe not how elite perhaps more likely how naive.
A good example was my last Division. A Division made up of mostly Wehrmacht Artillerie units and one SS Werfer batterie but the CO was a SS Gruppenfuhrer. Andre's friend Kammler.
There is a write up on the Web called "The storie of zV Division from Fehrbellin, Hellendoorn until Altenwalde" where one can see how quickly everybody surrendered with the exception of my outfit which followed orders until the bitter end and disintegrated when out of ammo before reaching Berlin.
As for " belive the naci propaganda and they didn't care if they lose their lifes, they yust live to fight as they were trained since they were smal boys !!! " that is somebody's else propaganda. Hitler Jugend and Jungvolk was not much different then the Boy Scouts who had allegiance to God and Country where as the former had allegiance to Volk and Fuhrer. In fact there were no Army, Airforce, Navy Cadets at High school as we have here.
The big difference in my opinion was the generation which was taught to do their duty and obey orders.
My opinion for what it's worth.
Gerhard

[Andy H]

Hitler Jugend and Jungvolk was not much different then the Boy Scouts who had allegiance to God and Country where as the former had allegiance to Volk and Fuhrer

Really?

Regards

[Matthias Fritz]

Gerhard and HaEn thank you for your opinions but my question was yust what was the maine diference betwen waffen SS solders at first stage of war comparing to the near end of 2WW ?
I have bean told by amy grandfather who was also a waffen SS vet since the ocupation of Slovenia that there was a big diference betwen officers at the begining with those later one, at the begining they were all proud ( solders and officers ) to be part of waffen SS, later on that intusiasem was long gone and so was the mayority of fine officers ( killed in action, mousty in Russia ) and they were replaced with yung SS junker schule recruts that didnt receve proper education and were simply not fit up to the task they toke ! He later on served at Prinz Evgen and he was not hapy with that, simply becourse that division like all others that folow ( made from folxdoyche and almoust everyone who wonts to yoin or hade bean tricked to yoin regarding his nationality and even regarding his real abilites ) were yust a fill up and nothing alse ! For example, SS Handzar who hade some sort of suces with fighting the titos partizans was almoust destroyed when it was send to fight the russians, sufferd havy loses and desertation from the division to the partizans, but on the other hand there was Walonie SS division which fought with bravery until the end, but i belive that is yust one example !!!

Abouth HJ division i steal belive that they were real fanatics, even if they were yust scout boys but they were treined to fight since the begining when they yoin the HJ and you cant compare them with some boy scouts from England or U.S, perhaps with some comunists boys club !!! Any way i wont to say that HJ SS division was perhaps the only division that steal hade similar waffen SS spirit like the elite waffen SS solders from LAH, DAS RIACH, TOTENKOPF, etc !

But i woud realy like to know why were this elite solders lost with such carelesnes ( in 1943 , 44 ) by their high officers, and i do belive that they were real elite compare to all so coled elite american / english / canadian / russian divisons !


Matthias

[phylo_roadking]

Andy - If you can scope it out...watch for "The Lost World Of Mitchell & Kenyon" on the telly. maybe UKTVHistory of BBC3 or 4 now. It's about two photographers in the north of England who got into filmmaking before the First World War. They didn't make features - more snapshots of life around them...and two preserved oil drums (!) discovered in the cellar of their old shop turned out to be brim-full of their filmstock was restored.

Buried away in the programme is a 5-second clip of the Boys' Brigade, somewhere in the North, on Founders' Day in 1913...parading through their local town - WITH RIFLES!!!

There was once upon a time quite a degree of REAL fieldcraft and paramilitary training in "youth organisations" in ALL nations. Certainly the Boy Scouts was initially planned by Lord Roberts as a SEMI-military auxiliary...as well as a way of putting BACK into BRITISH youth the degree of physical fitness (as well as fieldcraft) that was notably missing in Army recruits at the time of the Boer War. I don't know WHEN it stopped, but I've seen pics of Boy Scouts in the UK at target ranges before WWI definitely.

Also remember - the recuiting age for the HOME GUARD in the UK also meant that teenagers could be in a uniformed military organisation AND bear arms in the UK two years before Call-Up. Certainly after D-Day Montgomery and others are recorded as noticing that those TWO years teenage "pre-training" in the Home Guard meant better discipline and faster skills acquisition in Basic Training....as they ARRIVED there used to military discipline, use and maintenace of wepons, etc.

[gerhard2]

Matrhias,
When with a Ausbildungs Ersatz Abbteilung for basic and gun training our batterie manned from year 1926/25
guy's like me was earmarked to join the 12th (HJ) division which was training in Belgium. Somehow part of our batterie
ended up with the 2nd in Russia. Like the guy's of the 12th we were all 17-18 year old.
Fanatic ? not my choice of words. We thought we were fighting for our Fatherland and people especially
when seeing every day all those bombers going to our homes.
I was in the Hitler Jugend, your "trained to fight since the begining", funny I never saw any of it. I saw a lot of camping,
sport activities, marching, learning to read maps but trained to fight ? I guess that's what you were told and read.
Gerhard

[gerhard2]

Matrhias,
When with a Ausbildungs Ersatz Abbteilung for basic and gun training our batterie manned from year 1926/25
guy's like me was earmarked to join the 12th (HJ) division which was training in Belgium. Somehow part of our batterie
ended up with the 2nd in Russia. Like the guy's of the 12th we were all 17-18 year old.
Fanatic ? not my choice of words. We thought we were fighting for our Fatherland and people especially
when seeing every day all those bombers going to our homes.
I was in the Hitler Jugend, your "trained to fight since the begining", funny I never saw any of it. I saw a lot of camping,
sport activities, marching, learning to read maps but trained to fight ? I guess that's what you were told and read.
Gerhard

It has often been remarked that "in wartime truth is the first casualty." Atrocity propaganda in the hands of clever and unconscionable men became an exact science.

[John P. Moore]

I very much appreciate and value the comments of the veteran members HaEn and Gerhard. Their comments are based on what they PERSONALLY experienced during World War II and not something they read on the Internet or in some books. It is very good when Feldgrau members can raise questions of broad interest that the veteran members can answer.

John

[Hans]

Das Wesen der ausbildung für 10 - 14 Jährigen muss sein:

Tummeln bei Sport und Spiel,
spielerisches Spähen und Streifen im Gelände,
Wandern und Zelten,
um die Jungen gesund und kräftig aufgeweckt und naturverbunden zu machen.
Erziehung zur Disziplin ohne militärische Note. [Note "OHNE"]

Der Dienst der 14 - 18 Jährigen umfast:

Leibesübungen,
Ordnungsübungen.
Kleinkaliberschiesen,
Wanderungen und Märsche,
Morsen und den Geländedienst.

Source - Anlage 2 zu OKH Gen.St.d.H. 4.Abt. (Ic) Nr.730/37 g.

- Hans

[Andy H]

Hi Phylo

I'm aware that there are similar traits but the differences far outweigh them, especially that the HJ was there to provide recruits for the military aspect of a political party. Also if they were so similar one wonders why the Scouting movement was banned in Germany!

Regards

[phylo_roadking]

Andy - The first thing is - the HJ WASN'T there to provide recruits for the Army...in time of war conscription by whatever name its called in whatever country does that. What Germany had for a time, when the HJ was forming and all organisations slowly being amalgamated with it - was an OVER-abundance of recruits for a growING army. Instead - look more closely at exactly how the Nazis went about taking control of Germany. Party control went down to ALL levels sooner or later - every organisation was

1/ renamed to include "National Socialist" somewhere in its name
2/ NSDAP symbols etc. began appearing on everything - membership cards, brochures, etc.
3/ organisations were gathered under Party "umbrella" organisations.

I came across this a while back - how the Nazis rolled National Scoialism out into every sort of body - trade unions, apprenticeship schemes, Mother's Unions, the equivalent of thw WI - everything. If not in actual ideology - then in their organisation and paperwork!!! "Growing" the HJ was actually a VERY simple process of gradually gathering ALL youth organisations under one governmental umbrella. Not only does this have obvious benefits for political education and indoctrination....but it ALSO "grew" the HJ by taking into themselves the "social networks" and organisational resources of other organisations. For a considerable time the HJ was actually ANYTHING but "total coverage" - there are whole areas - and particularly rural areas - where HJ group organisers etc weren't available....and people couldn't afford to send their children to the closest group. This was actually one of the main reasons cited BACK at the Nazis...when they had to attempt a total of THREE times to make membership compulsory; parents couldn't be expected to send their kids a couple of times a week to something that simply wasn't there. The HJ was ALWAYS short of local area organisers.

Now - admittedly as the WAR progressed, the paramilitary aspects of the organisation were channeled into other things; the HJ formations, the flakhelpfern etc. - but this was because the "man"power resource was there to use. In the absence of war, the HJ would simply have been as paramilitary as any period uniformed youth group...with a slightly greater degree of hands'-on experience - range shooting etc. - with the ADDDITONAL indoctrination aspects. BUT speaking as someone who was put through the Boys' Brigade for a couple of years in my youth...the degree of Nazi indocrination COULDN'T form a greater part in "time" terms of a member's time at HJ meetings etc. ....than Christian teachings formed part of the Boys' Brigade parade routine AND get any other business of the organisation actually DONE!

That's what uniformed youth organisations are about - STRUCTURED management of a young person's learning curve OUTSIDE SCHOOL. Technically - it doesn't matter if they're compulsory or voluntary; OR what kind of learning inputs into the sytem...

[gerhard2]

Hans
I guess where I was your "Das Wesen der ausbildung für 10 - 14 Jährigen muss sein:" was not very important.
"Kleinkaliberschiesen," did not handle or fire a gun until basic training in my Ausbildungs Abt.
That was my experience and I do not like to make sweeping statements like "they were treined to fight since the begining"
Myself I really was never that eager as I had far more interesting hobby, Chemistry.
Gerhard

[Matthias Fritz]

I have to add that i belive that HJ SS division coud be proud for their battle achivments and they coud be only admired, can you amagine how one coud feal old only 16, 17 and he hade to fight for his country and i mean realy fight, what woud we do in their boots !?

But i steal belive that they hade to be treined and prepared for their roll otherwise they yust coudnt fight ageinst mush older, treined solders in Normandy ! O.K they also have liders such as Mayer, etc ,who manage to lied them but on the other hande they also comited some of the worst atrocites at 2 WW !

My grandfather tolde me that after some time he simply love to fight and during his short visits home he cudnt waith to return back to his divison, can you emagine that !? I belive that was the real spirit among waffen SS solders ! He also told me that sometimes they simply have to kill surendering partizans becourse they didnt have time to deal with them but one the other hand so did the partizans kill all german solders who surender, waffen SS or heer ! Only diference was that if you were from Waffen SS they use a knife, while on the Heer solders they normal use a bullet !
When the colapse of nazi germany was aprouching ( and the solders know that ) waffen SS solders know quiet weal that they are doomed and they yust tray to help Wermacht divisons to retret from Greece and Yugoslavia to Austria and that was the time that some worst crimes were comited by 7SS Prinz Evgen in Yugoslavia .

I hope that i didnt ofend anyone with my post !

Matthias

[Andy H]

the HJ WASN'T there to provide recruits for the Army

Hi Phylo

I never said they were. I stated that they were there to provide bodies intially (recruits for the military aspect of a political party) for the SA at the HJ's inception. The poltical indoctrination was as far as I can remember was a core issue from the beginning along with anti-semitic education lessons. Obviously there are aspects that would be akin such as fieldcraft etc but the degree to which the HJ 'Militarized' these activities went far beyond what Scouting was.

Regards