Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

German SS and Waffen-SS 1923-1945.
John P. Moore
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by John P. Moore » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:51 pm

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Regiment Norge
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Regiment Norge » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:25 am

Hi!

Outstanding John, here I found one norwegian that was unknown to me. I have never seen his name mentioned among Tölz veterans in Norway although several norwegians to this course is still alive, but they have not mentioned his name in conversations with me.

As you wrote earlier that these lists were found in the NARA T- series and that 4 Lhg. f.germ.Offz also was found. Is it the list of Kommandierungen to Tölz or final exam lists? If it is the Kommendierungen/Versetzungen to the school I can not remember seen this list on your CDs. Is it found recently? Would you be so kind to publish this list also here on this topic???

Regards
Regiment Norge

John P. Moore
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by John P. Moore » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm

Regiment Norge - The document that you ask about is from March 1944 and it is the 3. Vorbereitslehrgang für germanische Führerbewerber who later took part in the 4 germanic Lehrgang and the 14 KJL. I will post that document after I finish up with the 3 germanic Lehrgang.

Some more pages for the 3 germanic Lehrgang document
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John P. Moore
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

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nicoH
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by nicoH » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:18 am

Hi John

Many thanks for posting this list or the 3.Lehrgang für Germanische Offiziere. I could find 2 more 'new' dutchmen(Feberwee, van der Loos) , who were send to this course.

Looking forward to the lists promised on the Vorbereitungslehrgang for the 14.KJL and 4.Germanic Lehrgang.

Many thanks

Nico

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Regiment Norge
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Regiment Norge » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:17 am

Hi!

Outstanding work John, these lists are so full of surprises to me, because the participants who got the final exam are well known to me. Here I can find those who did not pass the final exam. I am very glad that you are willing to publish these documents here on the forum. I will keep sending you material on officers when I get information from Germany.

Best wishes
Regiment Norge

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Stormman » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:23 am

Thank you for posting this interesting information.
Maybe an interesting fact, Ernst van Rappard and Alfons Wachtelaer where the former leaders of the NSNAP and the NSVAP, and both in the same 'Lehrgang'. In July 1938 the NSVAP became part of the NSNAP.

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by John P. Moore » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:20 am

I am glad to hear that people found some new information from these documents. Here is another interesting related document that Noco H sent to me a few days ago. It lists men who were originally assigned to the 11.Kriegsjunkerlehrgang at Tölz, but were transferred to the 3. Germanische Lehrgang. Does anyone know the reason that this was done?
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Regiment Norge » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:22 am

Hi!

Concerning the first document dated 15.10.43 and those participants at 11 Kriegs-Junker-Lehrgang who was sent to 3 Lehrgang für germanische offiziere. Take a look at their birthdates - maybe these men are former officers or NCOs in their national army. In a letter I got from Dr. Fraz RIEDWEG he wrote that these Lehrgänge für germanische Offiziere was for former foreign officers who did not have to go through a complete Kriegs-Junker-Lehrgang.

Could some other clue be found in the SS-PA to these officers that they were former officers?

About the other document those sent from 3 Lhg f.germ. Offz to 11 KJLHG, could the reason here be that those individual (look at birthdates) were NOT former national officers, and therefore have to go through a complete war time course? Check their SS-PA and Lebenslauf.....

Edit: I have experienced that some norwegian former officers who were sent from 1. Lhg. f. germ.Off when this course ended on 30.4.43. These individuals were sent on to the 9 KJLHG who did not end until 31.7.43 for former education. This was done on an individual basis, i.e. the participants involved needed more education. (Source SS-PA Harald SÖDAHL)

Regards
Regiment Norge

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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Stormman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:45 am

The Lehrgänge für germanische Offiziere where not only intended for former officers from the national army. In this Lehrgang there where four officers from the Flemish Wehrmachtsgefolge-organisation the ‘Vlaamsche Wacht’ (V.W.), after the Lehrgang they where promoted to a rank equivalent to that of the V.W. and not of the former Belgian army.

SS-Schtz. Jan Uten, former active Belgian army 1.Ltn., Captain in the V.W., promoted to SS-Hstuf.
SS-Schtz. Remi Bertels, promoted to 2.Ltn. in the V.W., after the Lehrgang promoted to SS-Ustuf.
SS-Schtz. Marcel Elbers, promoted to 2.Ltn. in the V.W. after a O.A.-Lehrgang der L.S.B., after this Lehrgang promoted to SS-Ustuf.
SS-Schtz. Johannes van Ranst, 2.Ltn. in the V.W., promoted to SS-Ustuf.

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Regiment Norge
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Re: Germanische Officer Courses at Bad Tölz

Post by Regiment Norge » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:59 am

Stormman wrote:The Lehrgänge für germanische Offiziere where not only intended for former officers from the national army. In this Lehrgang there where four officers from the Flemish Wehrmachtsgefolge-organisation the ‘Vlaamsche Wacht’ (V.W.), after the Lehrgang they where promoted to a rank equivalent to that of the V.W. and not of the former Belgian army.

SS-Schtz. Jan Uten, former active Belgian army 1.Ltn., Captain in the V.W., promoted to SS-Hstuf.
SS-Schtz. Remi Bertels, promoted to 2.Ltn. in the V.W., after the Lehrgang promoted to SS-Ustuf.
SS-Schtz. Marcel Elbers, promoted to 2.Ltn. in the V.W. after a O.A.-Lehrgang der L.S.B., after this Lehrgang promoted to SS-Ustuf.
SS-Schtz. Johannes van Ranst, 2.Ltn. in the V.W., promoted to SS-Ustuf.
Hi!

I have only investigated the norwegians at Tölz. Based on that the majority of the former norwegian officers who joined W-SS was sent to Tölz for education through a war time officers course, but they were treated individually, i.e. if one needed moore education he was transferred to a war time course. There is one exception of the 3 Lhg. f.germ. Offz. On this course a total of 9 norwegians who finnished the Führerschule Jessheim (NS-Führerschule) they all signed up for W-SS. But instead of sending them to Sennheim or a training camp an agreement between general secretary of NS Rolf Jörgen FUGLESANG an Gottlob BERGER was to send them to Tölz to become officers instead.

One of the norwegians wrote a diary and they were given basic training at Tölz with a high ranking german NCO before they started at the school. When they got their final exam they were NOT given the rank of an SS-Standarten-Ober-Junker but instead SS-Standarten.Junker and they were all sent to the norw. SS-Jäg.Schi.Btl "NORGE". I am not sure if all were promoted to Ustuf, but they did frontlineduty with the rank of SS-St.Junker very long all into 1945.

I am looking forward to see the other VB-participant lists.....

Regards
Regiment Norge

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