The Camps, Einsatzgruppen, and Waffen SS

[Tom Houlihan]

I'm starting this as I would like a serious discussion of this point, but my response didn't belong in that thread. The quotes I have below are from Sid's review of Valhalla's book.

The book makes a good case that a significant minority of SS men were deeply involved in a large number of atrocious things, before, during and after their service in the Waffen-SS...

It could be me, but I thought that was fairly well-known? I have the benefit of some research that was shared with me specifically for my Nord work, that followed quite a number of SS officers' careers before, during, and after their service in the Camps. I was pretty sure several others had seen similar information, which would mean this was almost common knowledge.

...and that knowledge of these things must have been pretty generalised within its ranks. I think the author would have been better advised to let such evidence speak for itself.

For the life of me, I simply cannot remember where I had read something indicating that the men who had staffed the Camps were ordered not to discuss their activities therein. Would such an order have been followed? I don't know. If those officers talked about it, would it have been in front of the rank and file, or just in the Officers' Mess? How would we ever know?

[phylo_roadking]

Tom - there's also the whole aspect of "significant minority" in numbers' terms, as expressed elsewhere. What exactly comprises a "significant minority"? The figures availabe show some 900,000 served in the Waffen-SS during the war; 1% of this total is 9000, 2% is 18,000....etc.

The number may be "statisically significant"...as in "not zero" - but in percentage terms of overall service in the W-SS, it's likely to be minuscle.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Tom and Phylo,

Your quote is not directly from my review, but in answer to a question.

If you look at the review itself, it gives some concrete statistical examples of the degree of Waffen-SS participation in the Einsatzgruppen and of the widespread presence of camp officers in all bar three late-formation W-SS divisions. The book itself will tell you much more.

The numbers and seniority of Waffen-SS men involved in crimes is rather more than minuscule. It is certainly a minority, but how big it is difficult to say. The author can only deal with cases he knows of, so the book necessarily contains only those incidents he knows of. The actual number will necessarily be higher.

Must go.

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Tom,

I am not sure "several others" sharing a piece of information counts as "almost common knowledge".

But whether common knowledge or not, Valhalla's Warriors makes a well constructed sourced case that that a significant minority of SS men were deeply involved in a large number of atrocious things, before, during and after their service in the Waffen-SS.

As a matter of interest, have you published anything on the camp connections of officers in the Nord?

According to Goldsworthy (p.132) the Nord had the second highest known representation of former camp officers - 57. However, it is not known to have contained any former Einsatzgruppen officers (p.116).

I think the author would contend that through shared political orientation, values and experience, there would have been little to inhibit discussion on such activities in pursuit of official policy within the Waffen-SS. Certainly, as there seem not to have been any internal sanctions on those committing most of the actions cited, there seems to have been no institutional disapproval of them and so need to ban discussion of them.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Tom Houlihan]

Sid, I apologize for that misstatement. You're right, it's not from the review itself, but from a different post within that thread.

According to what I've found so far, out of about 1600 officers that served in Nord, 57 had spent time in the camps. That's about 3% overall.

[phylo_roadking]

Tom, would YOU regard 3% as being a "significant minority"?

[Tom Houlihan]

Not really...

[sid guttridge]

Hi Phylo and Tom,

A rereading will show that the "significant minority" did not refer only to officers who had served in camps.

The actual quote was "Valhalla's Warriors makes a well constructed sourced case that that a significant minority of SS men were deeply involved in a large number of atrocious things, before, during and after their service in the Waffen-SS."

A rereading of my review will show that I also desconstructed Goldsworthy's figures for camp officer service in the Totenkopf in exactly the same way as Tom does for the Nord - comparing their total with the total of officers who passed through the division - with similar results.

A pertinent question might be whether there is some double counting by Goldsworthy's source. For example, would an officer of the Nord who had previously or later served in another Waffen-SS division be shown under both?

Another pertinent question might be, was the camp officer content necessarily significant in terms of behaviour, given that the level of criminal accusations against the Nord is low compared with other Reich-raised divisions?

Cheers,

Sid.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Gents:
I ask this question because I really do not know the answer, but just because a Waffen SS officer was assigned to the camps, does this necessarily mean he committed war crimes?? Did a Waffen SS officer assigned to the camps do selections for the gas-chamber?? What was the range of duties assigned to Waffen SS officers during their tenure at the camps?? Is it, or is it not, possible that a Waffen SS officer assigned to the camps did nothing of a criminal nature while there?? We have established some Waffen SS officers served at the camps; now we need to establish if, while there, they did anything of a criminal nature. I know some did, Mengele for example, but did all of them?? Best wishes.

[Paddy Keating]

Not all personnel assigned to the staff of camps committed criminal acts.

PK

[phylo_roadking]

Similarly, of course - not all camps were "death camps" - a sizeable percentage were DEST camps.

[John W. Howard]

Hello Phylo and Paddy:
That is exactly what I thought, so the mere fact of being assigned as an officer to a camp or as a guard should not automatically make a member of the Waffen SS a criminal. So the percentage of criminal Waffen SS officers assigned to the camps will be even lower than the percentages posted in Dr. Goldworthy's book; do we know that figure?? Best wishes.

[phylo_roadking]

not automatically make a member of the Waffen SS a criminal

John - don't forget, as per Nuremberg, W-SS members weren't automatically criminals not as individuals. it was a "criminal organisation" but being a member of it didn't make you a criminal. What made a person one was STILL what it ALWAYS had been - being found GUILTY of a crime...until that point, they were at best "suspected" criminals.

[Michael Miller / ABR]

Similarly, of course - not all camps were "death camps" - a sizeable percentage were DEST camps.

A clever pun, but the ghosts of those worked or kicked off the cliffs to their deaths in the quarries at Mauthausen might say that's a distinction without a difference.

~ Mike

[phylo_roadking]

Mike, you're of course correct in real terms - but in the terms of Terry's thesis we're talking about his ideas of "group" and "individual" responsibility - so the guards at DEST camps are a separate case in war crimes terms and group responsibility from those involved in the institutionalized extermination camps.