Emphasis on SS just an "Anglo-Saxon" phenomenon?

[pzrmeyer2]

I'd be curious to know if the number of "people who joined" or otherwise collaborated or even just felt comfy under occupation was greater than or less than those "brave, heroic" souls who volunteered in the Resistance in say, France, Holland, or Belgium. And I mean actual numbers , not those who claimed to after the war.

a starter for 10

http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/vichy/resistance.htm

thank you for the informative link. looks like an intersting read, although it is not one that effectively sorts out the numbers between those who were actively Resistance or actively WaffenSS or other collaborators. probably impossible anyway...

[Soldat7128]

Well it would have to be qualified since joining the Resistance was probably a lot riskier proposition than joining the SS, plus it also brought one's friends and family into immediate danger and thus represented a harder decision to make.

Not so sure it was a lot riskier. what happened to to the surviving soldiers and family members of European Waffen SS volunteers post war? and many of them volunterred post Stalingrad, when future victory was far more doubtful than had they joined in say 1940. I'd say that made their decision much riskier at the time.

This is obviously a highly subjective topic but my personal sense is that right-wing Europeans *in general* still thought Germany would win even after Stalingrad, many of them even up to 1944/5 (by which time people were getting drafted into the SS, making those cases moot in terms of our discussion).

But how do you mean communism was imposed by outsiders in Western Europe? Eastern Europe I understand, but this discussion was about NW/W Europe. (Unless you're referring obliquely to the fact that Marx and many of his followers were Jewish and thus their ancestry was not indigenous to NW Europe, which I think has some *very* limited validity but is *not* a topic I want to pursue here [nor will I].)

then we can't talk about it.

Well apart from the potential *origins* of communists how did they *impose* it in Western Europe?

[phylo_roadking]

How many folks are waiting in line for "In Rain and Sleet, They Delivered: The operational history of the 1136th Postal Company (Reserve) in World War II"

Sorry - it's been done - and famously.

"Mister Roberts"

Heggen based his novel on his experiences aboard the USS Virgo (AKA-20) in the South Pacific during World War II. The novel started out as a collection of short stories. Broadway producer Leland Hayward bought the rights to the novel with the aim of producing it as a play and hired Heggen to adapt it. Logan later re-wrote most of the play, in collaboration with Heggen. The play was well received and a major hit. It won the 1948 Tony Award for Best Play.

Nearly all of the action takes place on a backwater cargo ship, the USS Reluctant that sails, as written in the play, "from apathy to tedium with occasional sidetrips to monotony and ennui."

...and of course the Oscar-winning film. And they waited in line for that.

[Soldat7128]

How many folks are waiting in line for "In Rain and Sleet, They Delivered: The operational history of the 1136th Postal Company (Reserve) in World War II"

Sorry - it's been done - and famously.

"Mister Roberts"

Heggen based his novel on his experiences aboard the USS Virgo (AKA-20) in the South Pacific during World War II. The novel started out as a collection of short stories. Broadway producer Leland Hayward bought the rights to the novel with the aim of producing it as a play and hired Heggen to adapt it. Logan later re-wrote most of the play, in collaboration with Heggen. The play was well received and a major hit. It won the 1948 Tony Award for Best Play.

Nearly all of the action takes place on a backwater cargo ship, the USS Reluctant that sails, as written in the play, "from apathy to tedium with occasional sidetrips to monotony and ennui."

...and of course the Oscar-winning film. And they waited in line for that.

Do you happen to know if it was ever released on DVD?

[phylo_roadking]

Yes, presently on the "Warner Bros. Classics" collection IIRC. I've been keeping my eyes open for it for ages, it's an all-time favourite.

[Soldat7128]

Yes, presently on the "Warner Bros. Classics" collection IIRC. I've been keeping my eyes open for it for ages, it's an all-time favourite.

Ah yes but did they *read the book*?

[sw_eno]

If you want the opinion of a German (I only read the starting post, not what was written afterwards):

I've noticed this too. Especially when talking to people from the scandinavian countries. They seem to be much more fascinated by the SS than by the regular Wehrmacht.

I'm rather unclear about why that is the case though. There are probably lots of factors.

Especially there is some notion of elitism attached to the SS. If that is rightly so I cannot say. Anyhow elite units are much more interesting than common units.

It was very european, people from many countries in Europe fought in the SS. That would at least make it interesting to those particular countries, much more interesting than the Wehrmacht.

The SS was anything but a regular army. It was ideologically motivated. The motivation was against bolshevism and let's face it, bolshevism does not have a high reputation. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

What I do not believe is that the germans are reluctant to face or work up their past concering the SS. Nazism and all its negative consequences are quite a present topic in Germany and have been extensively worked up. Probably and rightly so more than in any other country. In my view, military history is just a much less common hobby in Germany. So if books are published on this topic in Germany its mostly by veterans of the respective units. Therefor I'd guess the publishing rate of SS books compared to Wehrmacht books would be comparable to the size of the SS compared to the Wehrmacht.

One more word about the work you mentioned. SS: Alibi of a nation - its by Gerald Reitlinger, who is english (although the name sounds german). I read it and in my opinion its not a very well written book and certainly the title is misleading. It's not really about why the SS would be the alibi of the german nation. I guess it was just an eye-catching title.

[sid guttridge]

Hi pzrmeyer,

It would be a bit better to compare like with like if we are going to reach a meaningful comparison.

The few thousand Frenchmen who joined the Germans included two major groups.

1) Those who joined in 1941, when the Germans were apparently winning. They spent about ten days in the line and about a year chasing partisans. So they were not a high grade bunch and probably thought the risk was not excessive. In their particular case they were probably right.

2) Those who joined after the fall of France in 1944. They were essentially renegades, having compromised themselves by being part of the security apparatus of the Vichy government, often the Milice. They essentially entered German service by default.

So who to compare them with? The Maquis? Hardly. The maquis operated under different circumstances. (But that said, the Department of Drome alone had over 4,000 maquisards by mid 1944 - a similar order of magnitude to the total number of Frenchmen then serving in German uniform!)

More appropriate would be the Free French and the volunteers who came forward after liberation.

1) The Free French forces were not relegated to anti-partisan duties. They consistently fought in the front line with considerable effect from Bir Hakeim in 1941 onwards.

2) There were so many volunteers for the resuscitated French forces after liberation that most could not be accommodated due to lack of weaponry. We are not talking a few thousand, like those in German uniform, we are talking a million men or more. And this is with a million of the younger trained French troops unavailable because they were still held as POWs in Germany.

Now we have a comparison.

[sid guttridge]

Hi sweno,

I don't think that Scandinavians were that fascinated by the Waffen-SS at the time. On average during the occupation only about four Danes and four Norwegians volunteered for the Waffen-SS per day, so there wasn't much of a crush at the recruiting offices!

The reason why Scandinavians went to the Waffen-SS rather than the German Army was essentially because the Waffen-SS had been allocated the Nordic states as a recruiting area for political reasons early in the war. Hitler intended to create a Germanic Reich that included what he considered Germanic peoples, such as the Danes and Norwegians. But as we have seen, recruitment was low.

I would suggest that the popularity of the Waffen-SS as a subject today is much more a phenomenon of the publishing industry than of dispassionate military history. In particular, it is a phenomenon in the English-speaking publishing community, which has magnified the military-historical importance of the Waffen-SS out of all proportion. Despite repeated requests over the years on Feldgrau to find a single significant military innovation by the Waffen-SS, not one has been produced!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Paddy Keating]

Camouflage clothing...

[phylo_roadking]

Despite repeated requests over the years on Feldgrau to find a single significant military innovation by the Waffen-SS, not one has been produced!

Camouflage clothing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaE3EaQte78



If this descends from this point into an SS-Heer-anyone else tidemark in the urinals thread it would be a distinct pity and action would have to be taken appropriately. The cultural phenomenon is too interesting a question to lose focus on.

[Paddy Keating]

OK, back on topic:



He's doing Peter O'Toole in Night of the Generals. Anyway, as you can see, emphasis upon the SS is not limited to Anglo-Saxon circles? I have seen a photo of an African-American dressed in Waffen-SS uniform but I can't find it right now.

[Paddy Keating]

[phylo_roadking]

( What's Russell Mitchell from Exile Cycles doing dressed up as an SS officer??? )

I was rereading some old threads and I came across a claim that the relative overabundance of books on the W-SS vs. the Heer was an "Anglo-Saxon phenomenon", the author citing in part the fact that in Germany there are many more books on regular army units, and relatively fewer on the SS.

in this context I'd be more inclined to treat the world of Reenactment as a separate cultural phenomenon...the only place where THAT would overlap with the topic would be the buying habits of reenactors...

[Paddy Keating]

Moonlighting for the Doppelgangers Agency, mate! Times is tuff in the motor trade at the moment...