Foreign manpower in Waffen-SS

mikerock · Post by **mikerock** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:30 am

Of the total number of men who served in the Waffen-SS (800 000,) are there any rough (or exact!) numbers on what percentage of that came from foreign volunteers?

I know a substantial number of divisions incorporated or were completely formed by foreign nationals. How many were volksdeutsch? Just interested to see how many men served in the NSDAP's armed force that were not "true" Germans (ie: not nationals of the Reich.)

Thanks,
--Mike

Richard Murphy · Post by **Richard Murphy** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:46 am

From Nafzigers German Order Of Battle; Waffen SS and Other Units;

Hungarian Volksdeutsche-80,000
Dutch-50,000
Cossacks-50,000
Czech Volksdeutsche-45,000
Latvians-35,000
Ukrainians-30,000
Croatian Volksdeutsche-25,000
Flemings-23,000
Italians-20,000
Estonians-20,000
Croatians-20,000
Western European Volksdeutsche-16,000
Walloons-15,000
Serbians-15,000
Beylorussians-12,000
Danes-11,000
French-8,000
Turkestanis-8,000
Rumanian Volksdeutsche-8,000
Norwejians-6,000
Rumanians-5,000
Polish Volksdeutsche-5,000
Serbian Volksdeutsche-5,000
Spaniards/Swiss/Swedes/Luxemburgers/British-4,000
Albanians-3,000
Bulgarians-1,000
Finns-1,000
Scandanavian Volksdeutsche-775
Russian Volksdeutsche-100
French Volksdeutsche-84
British Volksdeutsche-10
American Volksdeutsche-5
Brazilian Volksdeutsche-4
Chinese Volksdeutsche-3
South-West African Volksdeutsche-3
South-East African Volksdeutsche-2
South American Volksdeutsche-2
Spanish Volksdeutsche-2
Palestinian Volksdeutche-2
Japanese Volksdeutche-2
Sumatran Volksdeutsche-2
Mexican Volksdeutsche-1
Australian Volksdeutsche-1
Indian Volksdeutsche-1
New Guinean Volksdeutsche-1

Total; 522,000 (As compared to approx 400,000 "Reich" Germans)

Regards from the Park,

Rich

Regards

charlie don't surf · Post by **charlie don't surf** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:00 am

Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Finns are mentioned...and then Scandinavians??? Frankly I think the number is higher, in example I believe the numbers of American volounteers were higher.

Best regards/Daniel

Juha Hujanen · Post by **Juha Hujanen** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:06 am

Well according to Mauno Jokipii's book Hitlerin Saksa ja Sen Vapaaehtoisliikkeet some 900 000 men served in Waffen-SS.Of those 400 000 were Eeichdeutche,300 000 Volksdeutche and Germanic(Western volunteers and Baltic countries) and some 200 000 from other countries(Russians,caucasus etc.).

Juha Hujanen · Post by **Juha Hujanen** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:15 am

Finns had 1408 volunters in Wiking between 41-43.After that some 70 men joined to Waffen-SS.Some did go voluntery,some joined after there were captured in Lapland by Germans when they retreated.

Cheers/Juha

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:46 am

The number of Romanian ethnic Germans is also suspiciously low. Even though many may be included in the Hungarian figure, because Northern Transilvania, where many lived, was annexed to Hungary from 1940-44, it still seems a very small proportion of the Germans left in Romania.

Cheers,

Sid.

charlie don't surf · Post by **charlie don't surf** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:19 am

I also think the South American and North American volksdeutsche must have been higher. It all has to do with the amount of attention it has recieved, there has been next to no research in us volounteers in example.

Best regards7 Daniel

Sam H. · Post by **Sam H.** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:13 am

I'm surprised at the number of serbian volunteers. My Mother's family survived the German occupation of Serbia (Yugoslavia) and have many tales of persecution/extermination from the German/Croats. I'm amazed that under that brutality, so many would join the ss.

Imagine how effective their recruitment campaign could have been if Hitler had made a concerted effort to reach out to the conqured peoples and try to win their hearts as oppossed to the brutal occupations that took place.

mikerock · Post by **mikerock** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:35 pm

Thank you all, and especially Richard for that detailed list.

I too am surprised at the numbers, for two reasons.

1) That such a high percentage of the German's elite political armed force was not German at all.

2) The low numbers of volksdeutsch volunteers from countries like the United States, Australia, and Canada. Countries which had accepted a large number of German immigrants during the interwar period.

Thanks,
--Mike

Marc Rikmenspoel · Post by **Marc Rikmenspoel** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:02 pm

Many of these figures seem wildly wrong to me. I studied various sources while preparing my Waffen-SS Encyclopedia, and whenever possible, I based the figures I listed on material prepared within the country in question.

The Dutch figure of 50,000 is widely quoted, and is seen as part of a total of 125,000 West Europeans. In fact, I can't account for more than 20,000 Dutch, as part of roughly 60,000 West Europeans in total.

The Flemish figure of 23,000 was reproduced in Der Freiwillige years ago, but Flemish sources sometimes quote only 8000. I find 8000 or so volunteering up to September 1944, and over 5000 more volunteering or being conscripted from refugees by the end of the war.

Conscription was openly practiced in Latvia, and enough manpower existed to create three or more divisions, had casualties in the two formed ones not constantly run so high. These were full infantry divisions, and I estimate that over 60,000 Latvians served in the Waffen-SS during the war.

Estonia had a similar situation, with enough manpower to form a second division, if not for casualties. I estimate that almost 30,000 Estonians served with the Waffen-SS, but that only 25,000 saw combat, since numerous very young men were in training at the end of the war in the very large training regiment of the division.

I place the French total at closer to 11,000 since the Charlemagne Division had about 7500 men, roughly 1500 more were in training formations during 1945, the battalion that fought in Galicia in 1944 was nearly wiped out, and hundreds of French joined the Waffen-SS prior to 1943 by pretending to be Walloons or claiming to be from French Flanders.

The figures of 6000 for Norway and 11,000 for Denmark do seem accurate, taking into account that 1200 or so of the Danes were ethnic-German Nordschleswigers.

The above are some of the nationalities I have most closely studied, and therefore can best comment on.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:44 pm

Hi All,

There is a possible explanation for many of the discrepancies noted above.

Romanian-born Volksdeutsch were widely used to fill out the ranks of under-recruiting Western European Waffen-SS units. What if they are being counted slackly as Dutch, Flemish, etc., simply because of the formations they served in?

This would account for both the under counting of Romanian Volksdeutsch and the over counting of some Western Europeans.

Cheers,

Sid.

jaegermeister · Post by **jaegermeister** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:38 am

I have read one thing that is wery humoristic. Or with black humor. In waffen-SS was one........Jew. I forgot what was the purpose but i think that he didn't like his country or something like that. He is still alive today, but his name wasn't given. If there would be his name, he would have a lot of problems in his homeland. That was a very interesting fact to me.

Thomas V. · Post by **Thomas V.** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:09 pm

Hallo Marc Rikmenspoel,

1. Many of these figures seem wildly wrong to me.

Very right. It seems to me Nafziger bluntly reproduced the number Felix STEINER gave in his book. These numbers are astronomically higher than the actual number (sometimes they seem to just have been doubled) and I have always wondered why. GUDERIAN’s early book also suffered from inaccurateness, the explanation there was that he was denied access to archives by the occupying powers.

2. In fact, I can't account for more than 20,000 Dutch

Correct and is confirmed by Dutch Waffen-SS veterans (I have seen the number of 22.-23.000 quoted the most).

3. The Flemish figure of 23,000 was reproduced in Der Freiwillige years ago, but Flemish sources sometimes quote only 8000. I find 8000 or so volunteering up to September 1944, and over 5000 more volunteering or being conscripted from refugees by the end of the war.

Interesting. Which Flemish source have you consulted? It has been published in Berkenkruis of 12/2002 and has been known for ages: the number is roughly 10.000, suffering a KIA as high as 2.500. I cannot immediately think of a Flemish source to name 8.000. But I’m curious, how did you come up with 5.000 out of conscripted refugees? It was true that VAN DE WIELE, as chief-in-exile of Reichsgau Flandern issued a conscription service but I really doubt this drew 5.000 new manpower. The trouble is this; we’ll never know the actual number and we lack important sources. The documents for SS-Division Nr. 27 were packed in a staff car and someone fired a Panzerfaust at it to destroy the papers. Also I don’t think many of the male, teenage (thus about to be called up) refugees to Germany arrived, as we know JUNGCLAUS made a mess out of the whole situation.

So you would have 13.000 as a total for the Flemings? I’m surprised because I nowhere find that number. Could you explain me how you reached this number? There are still so many missing as well.

Best regards,
Thomas