My apologies (now re: Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger")

[phylo_roadking]

Andre, actually the Americans "won" the Cold War and destroyed the Communist government of Russia. I'm very careful how I word that - thats ALL they did. Communism still survives around the world in many flavours. It still survives even in Russia.

The "Soviets" were defeated by dint of an idea produced by TWO writers Reb is probably familiar with knowing some of his reading habits - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. It took nearly 15 years to come to fruition, but they are now very clearly credited with this achievement.

[Reb]

Phylo

Am I that obvious?

Which Idea are you referring to? You've tweaked my interest now! I've read a lot of Pournelle's defense essays (as well as the sci fi of course) so it could be in a lot of areas.

What am I missing?!

cheers
Reb

ps I even had the honor of a reject slip from Pournelle for his There Will be War series. Fiction must not be my thing eh?

[phylo_roadking]

I take it you've read "Footfall"? It would be the bits about the Thinker fithpf - this was modelled on a real-life think-tank formed by the Petagon within weeks of Reagan's swearing-in....

Niven and Pornelle (who later wrote themselves up in Footfall as Nate Reynolds and Wade Curtis!) were part of a group of science-fiction writers who were brought in to come up with innovative ways to exploit space as part of the Cold War.....

They instead came up with an idea of how to use space to send the USSR's economy into freefall! Which we know better as the original SDI....

The idea was to totally convince the Soviets that :-

1/ the US was REALLY going to create a "Star Wars" space defence system combining a whole raft of their ideas - new ones and recycled old early Cold War ideas

2/ they had in turn to accelerate their own space proigram to somehow come up with a counter to all this....which led in turn to the Buran Russian shuttle system and the new missile systems while they still could - while there was still a point

3/ under the cover of this umbrella the US would begin its huge Reagan-era military buildup, and be "safe" to do so....because final escalation to nuclear war would take any conflict into an area where the US would be relatively untouchable!

4/ The US would be free to develop a whole new family of nuclear weapons and delivery systems that it could use but no enemy could counter - remember the Neutron Bomb fuss? The MX missile pack idea....then the railcar idea....?

5/ the US was flipping its political coin at last and after a few years' retrenchment was bound on an expansionist path again - Grenada, Panama, etc. etc. ......

The point of the plan was sismple - even if the system was NEVER created or commissioned, the US wouldn't just try to KID the Russians that it was going to do this...but had to spend on it and actually be SEEN to be going for it for real! So SDI was both a gaint con-act AND yet at the same time was perfectly real!

The Russian economy went into meltdown as the Russians tried to spend their way out of "potential" danger...and military spending went up to 35% of the national budget. Totally untenable. The huge extra spends and drive to outdo the US in turn threw up HUGE politcal stresses within the Troika of the Politburo, Army and KGB, and as the economy started to overheat led to the inevitable growth of a Russian "dove" movement...which withina few years eveloped further into the ideas of glasnost and perestroika....and finally as the USSR collapsed wordlessly into the new vacuum in its economy, its doimination of the countries of the Warsaw Pact fell in after it.

EXACTLY the same priciple as how weedkiller works - throws the plant into overdrive and burns it out in a few days!

There were apparently other known "names" in the think-tank, but they've never been officially released. Except one hint. The other member of the "Thinker fithpf" was a retired USN lieutenant named Robert and his wife....weren't Heinlein and his wife huge is originally setting up the Society for Creative Anachronism?

[Reb]

PHlyo

Excellent! I'loved FootFall. (I read it about the same time I found John Ringo and his flesh eating Posleen!)

Giant elphants with an attitude problem! Gotta love it!


What you say makes sense - particulary in light of an essay on SDI that Pournelle wrote and included in his There Will be War series.

Liddell Hart would love Reagan et al doing in the Soviets using the strategy of indirect approach. Of course Afghanistan helped but was sort of another nudge into the abyss.

Time will tell if that seething froth that used to be the dreaded USSR will become a better place or just keep seething. I hopes for Russia but worry about the rest of it.

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

Afghanistan was the Soviet's version of Vietnam....in more ways than one! It was their attempted demonstration to the US that THEY were quite prepared - politically as well as militarily - to take on a simple war of expansion on whatever flimsy pretext. And thus can be re-read against the SDI context as their attempt to reinforce their conventional military predominance.....which just didn't exist. Their weapons systems turned out to be both overly complex and very unreliable (a dozen circuit boards to replicate the function of the first integrated chips in use in the West by then), with high-cost items like the wonderful Hind becoming demonstably vulnerable to a simple shoulder-held missile, BMPs and BTRs being severely allergic to a "pot mine" dug in a gravel track, etc.

In turn, as the war there soured quickly, began to cost the USSR more and more, and their weapons sytems so expensively bought and developed proved vulnerable to weapons so primitive that there was no hi-tech way to combat them - the "doves" increased in influence in Moscow while the Army and militant "right-wingers" lost out. Basically every trend leading to the dissolution of the Soviet regime had its direct beginnings in the SDI plan....or in some OTHER factor or trend thrown up by it!

I don't think anyone ever conceived it would do anything more than destabilise the Soviet Union in several key areas - they couldn't have foreseen that the rolling process would take up a momentum of its own and destroy it!

For want of a nail....!

[panzerschreck1]

Question what if Dirlewanger got killed early in lets say 43, would the battalion have acted in another way....as cruel as, weren't there great stakes of keeping Dirlewanger alive for the sinister intentions by the SS-HA (read Berger) or Hitler/Himmler......

Maybe Dirlewanger got orders from higher up to take care more and not indulge himself in to precarious situations, for safeguarding the existance of the unit?

[panzergrenadier]

God bless all here :-)

With regard to the subject of the Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger" during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, and specifically the testimony of Sturmpionier Schenk, I have encountered a few concerns in the accuracy of what he reported regarding the "Dirlewanger" troops.

These I find the most questionable.

We were followed by Dirlewanger’s horde. They were looking like bums. Dirty and shredded uniforms. Not all of them had weapons; they were taking them from the dead. Every morning they were getting vodka.

Then a SS unit arrived. They looked strange. They had no ranks on their uniforms and reeked of vodka.

And yet, given the photographic evidence of the following photo of Dirlewanger troops in Warsaw in early August of 1944, a marked contrast can be seen.



This seems to be a "candid" photograph, with several of the men seeming to be laughing at something toward the photographer. Of obvious note is the clear rank insignia being worn (Rottenfurher chevrons) both on sleeve and shoulder straps, camouflage smocks on some of the men, cap insignia, and generally a sense of well equipped troops. Some of the men are still even wearing taller marching boots instead of the low cut variety with gaiters. Additionally, these men are well armed, with rifles, sub-machine guns, linked ammunition belts, even spare barrel tubes for belt fed weapons being visible. The corporal in the picture is even carrying a flare pistol (hanging from his kit, next to his helmet). These troops do not seem to match that same description as that given by Schenk.

Another quote from Mr. Schenk:

“Then in the cellars of Warsaw we were calling him ‘the butcher’. Silently because in his units the way to the rope was short. He had a habit of hanging people every Thursday. Poles or his own people for nothing. Very often he himself kicked the chairs from under his victim’s feet."

Thursday hangings? has there ever been any documentation on this? I do not recall any mention of it in French's "The Cruel Hunters". Were there any reports from Bach's HQ regarding summary execution of German troops in the field during the Warsaw Uprising?

"I saw Dirlewanger for the last time – he was walking among the ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies were everywhere in the streets. His leather coat was worn out. The women – one blonde, one brunette – were very elegant, clean. They were chattering away happily. I didn't know if these women were Polish – I was too far."

Rather curious a statement. Ruined city, unexploded munitions, small pockets of active resistance, the Red Army just across the Vistula and the Red Air Force already active overhead, decaying bodies, fire, smoke and Oskar takes a stroll with two attractive and elegant women through this?

Please note:

1.) None of this is a personal attack upon Sturmpionier Schenk. However, some of his statements have left me with questions.
2.) This is not a dispute of the crimes committed by Direlwanger, the Sonderregiment, or the German commanders in Warsaw in 1944.


Regards to All.

[Jules]

Merci de ce 'fil',j'ai appris beaucoup de choses sur Oskar Dirlewanger.

Bonne journée.

[Herr Bubikopf]

God bless all here :-)

With regard to the subject of the Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger" during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, and specifically the testimony of Sturmpionier Schenk, I have encountered a few concerns in the accuracy of what he reported regarding the "Dirlewanger" troops.

These I find the most questionable.

We were followed by Dirlewanger’s horde. They were looking like bums. Dirty and shredded uniforms. Not all of them had weapons; they were taking them from the dead. Every morning they were getting vodka.

Then a SS unit arrived. They looked strange. They had no ranks on their uniforms and reeked of vodka.

And yet, given the photographic evidence of the following photo of Dirlewanger troops in Warsaw in early August of 1944, a marked contrast can be seen.



This seems to be a "candid" photograph, with several of the men seeming to be laughing at something toward the photographer. Of obvious note is the clear rank insignia being worn (Rottenfurher chevrons) both on sleeve and shoulder straps, camouflage smocks on some of the men, cap insignia, and generally a sense of well equipped troops. Some of the men are still even wearing taller marching boots instead of the low cut variety with gaiters. Additionally, these men are well armed, with rifles, sub-machine guns, linked ammunition belts, even spare barrel tubes for belt fed weapons being visible. The corporal in the picture is even carrying a flare pistol (hanging from his kit, next to his helmet). These troops do not seem to match that same description as that given by Schenk.

Another quote from Mr. Schenk:

“Then in the cellars of Warsaw we were calling him ‘the butcher’. Silently because in his units the way to the rope was short. He had a habit of hanging people every Thursday. Poles or his own people for nothing. Very often he himself kicked the chairs from under his victim’s feet."

Thursday hangings? has there ever been any documentation on this? I do not recall any mention of it in French's "The Cruel Hunters". Were there any reports from Bach's HQ regarding summary execution of German troops in the field during the Warsaw Uprising?

"I saw Dirlewanger for the last time – he was walking among the ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies were everywhere in the streets. His leather coat was worn out. The women – one blonde, one brunette – were very elegant, clean. They were chattering away happily. I didn't know if these women were Polish – I was too far."

Rather curious a statement. Ruined city, unexploded munitions, small pockets of active resistance, the Red Army just across the Vistula and the Red Air Force already active overhead, decaying bodies, fire, smoke and Oskar takes a stroll with two attractive and elegant women through this?

Please note:

1.) None of this is a personal attack upon Sturmpionier Schenk. However, some of his statements have left me with questions.
2.) This is not a dispute of the crimes committed by Direlwanger, the Sonderregiment, or the German commanders in Warsaw in 1944.

Hi panzergrenadier!
I think this is the uniform for which Mathias Schenk talking about :
1.


2. Dirlewanger thug with special kind of winter "uniform" :

[panzergrenadier]

Well, I cannot say much for the painted model, other than the rather cartoon caricature of the face. Regarding the Osprey publishing (appears to be Osprey) rendition of a Dirlewanger Schutze in Germany as of March 1945, isn't that simply the grey winter uniform issued to German soldiers? The captured PPSh-41 is by no means unusual, and the fragmentation grenades are as well. Not sure about the pipe...


Attached is a picture purportedly of POW's at the Elbe River. Please note the older Dirlewanger grenadier in the picture with the bandaged head in the lower left. Lookig over his uniform, again contrary to the description given by Schenk in Warsaw, this man appears to be rather standard in uniform. Rank is clearly displayed on collar and on sleeve. On his left breast pocket appears to be the Iron Cross 1st class, as well as another award (infantry clasp?).

If this picture was genuinely taken by the Western Allies at the Elbe, then this man is one of the few Grenadiers of the 36th to have successfully made it out of the Halbe Pocket.

Regards to all.

[Herr Bubikopf]

Regarding the Osprey publishing (appears to be Osprey)

This picture is from russian journal "Military Chronicles Series":
MCS-025 Near Berlin. 3 February-5 April 1945. Part 1: Reich Elite Forces book:

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?MCS-025

this man is one of the few Grenadiers of the 36th to have successfully made it out of the Halbe Pocket.

I completely agree with you! Sad but true...

Cheers!
Godgift

[nicoH]

Hello

I would like to ask about the picture , showing purportedly POWs near the Elbe river.

Attached is a picture purportedly of POW's at the Elbe River. Please note the older Dirlewanger grenadier in the picture with the bandaged head in the lower left. Lookig over his uniform, again contrary to the description given by Schenk in Warsaw, this man appears to be rather standard in uniform. Rank is clearly displayed on collar and on sleeve. On his left breast pocket appears to be the Iron Cross 1st class, as well as another award (infantry clasp?).

If this picture was genuinely taken by the Western Allies at the Elbe, then this man is one of the few Grenadiers of the 36th to have successfully made it out of the Halbe Pocket.

Regards to all.

Behind the Dirlewanger Grenadier are at least 4 Waffen-SS Officers. Can somebody give any clue on these men? Who are they? Waht unit did they belong too as quite afew WSS units surrendered ner the Elbe river??

Further as this photo is labelled Elbe2, are there more photos available in this series??

Best regards and mary Christmas

Nico

[Herr Bubikopf]

Osprey publishing:
1. SS-Rottenführer, SS Sonderregiment Dirlewanger; Belorussia, June 1944.


2. (1). SS-Rottenführer, SS Sonderregiment Dirlewanger; Belorussia, June 1944.
(2). Waffen-Hauptsturmführer, SS-Sturmbrigade RONA; Warsaw, August 1944.
(3). Schütze, SS-Sturmbrigade RONA; Warsaw, August 1944.


Source: "The Waffen-SS (4): "24. to 38. Divisions, & Volunteer Legions"; Gordon Williamson, Stephen Andrew; 2004.

Mary Christmas

[panzergrenadier]

With regard to the Elbe2 photo, I found it on a Russian military website, posted during a discussion about the 36th Waffen Grenadiers. I have no idea who the SS officers behind the Dirlewanger Grenadier are, though the one wearing glasses certainly went into captivity well prepared by the look of the pack he is carrying. The men in the photo appear to be a mixed bag of Army and SS troops.

From what I understand, Brigadefuhrer Fritz Schmedes led some elements of the 36th Waffen Grenadier successfully out of the Halbe Pocket, and reached the Elbe River and American lines on May 3, 1945.

Bubikopf- the Osprey illustrations you posted... Complete with Vodka bottle? And the RONA illustrations...

I was wondering if perhaps Pionier Schenk was confusing the RONA troops with Sonderregiment Dirlewanger grenadiers. The lack of uniform or rank insignia, and vodka he mentions, might be indicative of that.

In the attached photo, though blurry, again one can see the unit collar patch (obviously) but also pretty standard Waffen SS kit. Some of the men appear to wearing camouflage smocks/helmet covers. Again, not the descriptions given by Pionier Schenk of bums in dirty and tattered uniforms without rank insignia, weapons, and stinking of vodka.

Merry Christmas.
Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward all.

[WillBittrich]

God bless all here :-)

With regard to the subject of the Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger" during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, and specifically the testimony of Sturmpionier Schenk, I have encountered a few concerns in the accuracy of what he reported regarding the "Dirlewanger" troops.

These I find the most questionable.

We were followed by Dirlewanger’s horde. They were looking like bums. Dirty and shredded uniforms. Not all of them had weapons; they were taking them from the dead. Every morning they were getting vodka.

Then a SS unit arrived. They looked strange. They had no ranks on their uniforms and reeked of vodka.

And yet, given the photographic evidence of the following photo of Dirlewanger troops in Warsaw in early August of 1944, a marked contrast can be seen.



This seems to be a "candid" photograph, with several of the men seeming to be laughing at something toward the photographer. Of obvious note is the clear rank insignia being worn (Rottenfurher chevrons) both on sleeve and shoulder straps, camouflage smocks on some of the men, cap insignia, and generally a sense of well equipped troops. Some of the men are still even wearing taller marching boots instead of the low cut variety with gaiters. Additionally, these men are well armed, with rifles, sub-machine guns, linked ammunition belts, even spare barrel tubes for belt fed weapons being visible. The corporal in the picture is even carrying a flare pistol (hanging from his kit, next to his helmet). These troops do not seem to match that same description as that given by Schenk.

Another quote from Mr. Schenk:

“Then in the cellars of Warsaw we were calling him ‘the butcher’. Silently because in his units the way to the rope was short. He had a habit of hanging people every Thursday. Poles or his own people for nothing. Very often he himself kicked the chairs from under his victim’s feet."

Thursday hangings? has there ever been any documentation on this? I do not recall any mention of it in French's "The Cruel Hunters". Were there any reports from Bach's HQ regarding summary execution of German troops in the field during the Warsaw Uprising?

"I saw Dirlewanger for the last time – he was walking among the ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies were everywhere in the streets. His leather coat was worn out. The women – one blonde, one brunette – were very elegant, clean. They were chattering away happily. I didn't know if these women were Polish – I was too far."

Rather curious a statement. Ruined city, unexploded munitions, small pockets of active resistance, the Red Army just across the Vistula and the Red Air Force already active overhead, decaying bodies, fire, smoke and Oskar takes a stroll with two attractive and elegant women through this?

Please note:

1.) None of this is a personal attack upon Sturmpionier Schenk. However, some of his statements have left me with questions.
2.) This is not a dispute of the crimes committed by Direlwanger, the Sonderregiment, or the German commanders in Warsaw in 1944.


Regards to All.

I would like to make a comment on this post and how analyzing one photograph can some how discredit or question Mathias Schenk description of the horror of the Dirlewangers in the Warsaw uprising.

I would first like to point out that the majority of the threads here tend to respect most testimonies and veterans stories. Secondly the majority of battles are stressful awful situations and most photographs of smiling waving soldiers do not tell the true stories.

here are some points to consider.

!. Regarding the uniforms. this was a 2 month battle in a city with little or no rest. Urban warfare / destroyed buildings with broken glass, concrete, iron and bricks. tend to tear uniforms and the uniforms can not be replaced in the middle of a war zone The SS soldiers in the Warsaw Uprising were not able to replace their uniforms easily. Soldiers in combat can stay in the same uniform for months. The camouflage smocks were also not made to last and tore easily.

Mathias Schenk was also a new to combat and would be surprised by the torn / worn uniforms of veterans. Add the debauchery and that would only add to his description.

2. The loss of weapons is normal in the heat of a fierce urban setting. this type of urban warfare not only has strains on the men but also the weapons. Because the front lines were organic and the Polish Home Army was in pockets of resistance and often soldiers ended up in hand to hand combat. If a weapon was lost or damaged there was not an armoury stocked with weapons around every corner. A soldier would often have go for hours and find one of of a dead comrade or enemy.

3 Mathias Schenk observation of the thursday hangings are quite possible. Just because the hangings were not mentioned in the post war book The Cruel Hunters does not mean that they did not happen, However I would question Mathias Schenk's story if their was historical documentation form many other German army veterans and witnesses in Warsaw that the Dirlewanger unit was handing out flowers and food to the Polish population but sadly this was not the case.

4 Dirlewanger and the two women, why is this not possible? Dirlewanger was notorious and ferocious in battle, if he was willing to lead his men into battle and get wounded I would not think that walking casually with women in the ruined streets Warsaw would be much trouble for such a hardened veteran, add liquid courage (vodka) and it makes it even easier Warsaw is also 516.9 km2 this means he could have been 25 to 50 km away from the fighting. the Russians were on the other side of the Vistula which is a wide river and were watching the Germans destroy the Polish Home army with little or no intervention.

The Dirlewanger unit was comprised of criminals and this is well documents. the junior member were not even considered full SS member, hence the title "Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS" Translation Weapon-Grenadier OF the SS, notice the OF. The Members in the unit had little respect from other members of the army and complaints were often lodged against them. They were not only criminals but one would also have to question their fighting ability, terror does not equal good soldier. Add this to the realities of war and you create a hell. The Warsaw uprising was hell.

Simply put the Dirlewanger unit comprised of drunk convicts that were poorly trained and often went awol. And to somehow suggest a difference in the behavior of the Dirlewanger units or RONA is untrue.

Both were assigned to Warsaw because of their horrific brutality.

Cheers

Will